When will we be rid of The Nativity?

[Occam'sRazor]

When will we be rid of The Nativity?

 

Never, hopefully.

 

I loved the nativity play when I was a kid

 

I was the innkeeper, who told Mary and Joseph there was no room at the inn, and I have never forgiven myself

 

 

Don't be so hard on yourself, Mr Bourne. The BBC has told me that back in those days, the stable was a common place to give birth and was actually quite decent. Lots of ventilation but dim and away from the sunlight, and lots of comfy hay.

 

Does that ease your burden?

[Occam'sRazor]

I recall believing the whole lot, the flood, Jesus on a donkey, Judas. It was all told as if it happened. No one balanced it with something like, "Our all-loving god wiped out the entire population of the world less one family, all because of a design error."

 

Perhaps people just carried on the tradition and there was no-one radical enough to make a stand. I tried when I was fifteen by writing to 'the Star' to complain about the legislation demanding a religious assembly in schools every day. I was slated the following week and guess what? We still have to have assemblies nearly 35 years later. At least I didn't get fed the 'fire and brimstone' routine that many children seemed to get from the more religious schools.

 

Now there are dissidents like my 11 year-old son, who I posted about recently. A teacher threatened him with punishment for not singing in assembly after I told him he didin't have to sing.

 

It just seems odd that we are supposed to encourage children to form their own conclusions when it comes to 'safe stuff' but there are religious zealots queing to get into their impressionable minds. I call it abuse.

 

 

Thanks to all. Some good posts there.

 

I hear you, Bloomdido! Well done for trying to kick up a stink. I didn't know that religious assemblies were actually required. Presumably Dawkins is onto the case... And I agree about abuse. When my fiancée was in primary school, she refused to say prayers and so the school withheld food from her. This is only 15-20 years ago, mind! They said she had to thank God and be grateful to him, since other people are starving (??). She replied with the very obvious line: "My parents made these sandwiches; God had nothing to do with it." Strangely, it never convinced the teachers.

[Bloomdido]

But what if your 11 yr old decided later in life to take up a particular religion - would you shun him for his views of be tolerant?

 

I would have him stoned to death or buried alive. I am a very tolerent atheist but I have to conform to what is expected.

[Occam'sRazor]

Who are you to say that the birth of Jesus Christ is not as it says?

That is most arrogant in my opinion.

Mohammed was called to appear before god also.

Presumably you deny this.

Hundreds of millions follow these ideas, it is foolish to decry them.

 

Regarding the Nativity, wait until your kids are at school.

You will be the first there if your daughter is chosen as the Virgin Mary. :hihi:

 

 

Sorry, this'll be my last reply for the night. I just couldn't leave this post alone!

 

Where to begin... Okay, at the top. It's not arrogant to disbelieve the gospels. (Should we believe all of the gospels or just the canonical four that Emperor Constantine selected?) I think it is more arrogant to go against credible historians who have worked so hard, without spending lots of time researching it yourself. That's not directed at you as much as it is directed at the primary schools that teach The Nativity etc. as if it were true.

 

Muhammad is said, by Muslims, to have been called before God. That is how we should teach it, anyway. Yes, he liked to sit in a cave all by himself. (Odd how God generally appears to people when nobody else is around to witness it! "Up on a mountain, away from peering eyes, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments....") Eventually he experienced hallucinations of angels. In comes our old friend Gabriel, who informed Muhammad that God made us from a globule of clotted, congealed blood. Muhammad also thought that he spoke to the dead and flew on a winged horse. My favourite is when he saw an angel with "70,000 heads, each head having 70,000 mouths, each mouth having 70,000 tongues, each tongue speaking 70,000 languages; and every one involved in singing God's (Allah's) praises." [Wikipedia quote! The shame... I had to find it, though!] So the angel spoke 24 quintillion (24 with 18 zeros) languages. Quality.

 

And yes, I deny this, in the sense that I don't believe he really rode on a winged horse. The liberal Muslims presumably take the same stance as the liberal Christians by taking some of their divinely inspired book as metaphor. Which of course leads us to the question of how much of the book is metaphor, and what is it a metaphor for? I could believe any book if I took the true bits as true and the false bits as metaphors for something true!

 

Yes, billions of people follow religions, but it is not foolish to decry them. I hope no further discussion is needed.

 

The thread title was referring to the times when the newspapers all wept because we're too 'multicultural' and giving in to the 'outsiders' by stopping our Nativity plays. I have no problem with The Nativity being taught and acted out, so long as it's made very clear that it isn't true. Many people in this country and throughout Europe used to believe it, and some still do now. As long as they're aware that it's for tradition-appealing pleasure and not for history, that's fine.

[top-owl]

this thread is typical utter rubbish political correct nonsense ... thro time immemorial stuff like this has been taught in ENGLISH ... yes ENGLISH schools here in england !!!

if you are offended by english tradition in english schools in england then i would like to make a suggestion to you .....GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM !!

england is england ... if you dont like it then GO AWAY

 

there is the old saying "when in rome , do as the romans do" or summat similar

 

i am not in any way religious , never have been , never will be .... but the way this country is going english people will have less & less rights in this country than people who have been here for less than a week ..... if u dont like it then (insert your own expletive here) off !!

banning St Christopher chains & crosses etc cos it offends non english persons ... what a load of utter crap, if u dont like it then dont come

 

rant over ... i strongly suspect i aint the only english person what feels this way .... this is a forum , i am expressing my feelings as you have expressed yours there is nothing racist nor offensive in it

 

long live english tradition !!!

[epiphany]

I think it should be renamed Mary's Coat Hanger: The Tragic Abortion of Jesus Christ.

[top-owl]

if i dislike something i avoid it ....i actually hate religion but i do not & never will decry anyone for their beliefs

take a leaf out of my book ... let folk do/believe/think what they want cos at the end of the day its got sod all to do with the likes of you !

[Weazel2006]

Hundreds of millions follow these ideas, it is foolish to decry them.

 

It is also foolish to blindly follow the herd and without a wide variety of experiences from different perspectives.

 

My childhood was quite wierd in terms of school and the nativity, my mother was JW and so i was excluded from the mainstream christian version of the teachings but the whole thing came across as a story from day one, never believed it happened for a minute, but then again that's because i see myself as a better storyteller.

 

Makes you wonder what you can make people believe though, if there was no present religion and we started it all up today what would we come up with.

 

Personally i think all religious teaching should go the way of the dodo as it does little good.

[truthwillout]

I remember the newspapers fretting about the disappearance of primary school Nativity plays, but it seems to me that they're still around. Is the teaching of the Nativity part of the curriculum? If it is, I sincerely hope that it isn't still taught as if it were a history lesson.

 

Back when I was a boy, I remember being totally convinced by my primary school teachers that Gabriel really did appear before Mary, and God really did impregnate her with himself (although it wasn't quite expressed in that manner), and Mary and Joseph actually thought it would be a good idea to travel all the way to Bethlehem on a donkey while heavily pregnant, and the rest of it. Also included was Jesus walking on water, making blind people see again, and raising people like Lazarus and Jairus' daughter and himself from the dead. Looking back, I'm absolutely disgusted.

 

When we learned about the Egyptian deities, we were under no illusions that they weren't mythical. I'm not saying that Jesus is mythical; just, well, most of the story. Perhaps in the way that some of us treat the stories of King Arthur - a slight basis in fact, but mostly a motivational fiction for whatever social, moral or political purpose it was intended. At the very least, we know the Nativity is not historically accurate, and no historian worth her salt would consider any of the miracles as historically accurate. I would hope that schools now teach all of RE as systems of unfounded beliefs, e.g. "Some people (though not many nowadays) of the Abrahamic religions believe that a god called Yahweh created the world in 6 days, making humans on the sixth." "Some Christians (though not many nowadays) believe that Gabriel appeared to Mary etc."

 

My friends have two daughters, one of whom is coming back home from school actually believing the Christian tenets she's being taught. I can't help wondering if she's being taught them as if they were the truth or as merely what other people believe. Something tells me it's the former. If I was her parent, I'd be having words with the school.

 

When will schools grow up and stick to teaching our children only facts and skills?

How would you feel if you found out, the children were being taught **** all about this story you clearly dont believe in?

 

Im spiritual and teach my children my beliefs and make it very clear why they were never christened (as this is their choice)

 

In the event my children were about to die, I wouldnt hesitate to have them christened as this is a step further than I am so far willing to travel in my beliefs but ultimatly am willing to go, in order to feel that my child is going to where I am, I was christened without consent, as was normal back in the days of my birth,when a co op, meant co operative.........

 

However frankly I cant abide the fact that my own religion (which I do not practise in any way other than have a small tacky wooden cross) isnt really taught in schools, by this I mean, I dont mind my child visiting any other place of religion unless the same is done in return for my own and others, as it so far stands, the only place of religion my children have travelled to at school is the mosque, call it racist if you will, but I just call it "what the f***

[kabacha]

I think all religion should be taught as "this is what Christians believe", "this is what Muslims believe", "this is what Buddhists believe" "this is what athiests believe"

 

It is then up to the child as they grow up to decide which they think is true or not.

No doubt they will choose the path with the least amount to do, the lazy way, the atheist way, just sit and make excuses why they don't need to make am effort to be better people.