Does fate exist?

[Wildcat]

Even at the arithmetic level, Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem has proven that there will always be some things mathematics cannot prove.

 

In the book Godel, Escher and Bach, Godel's theorems are used to explain emergence... complex behaviour on a different level deriving from simple mathematical functions. If anything Godel's theorems allow for the possibility of deterministic fate that may only be provable by actually deriving them, but not unprovable.

[Mecky]

Fate doesn't exist. There's an overworked saying which is often quoted, "Life is what you make it." If that's the case, why I haven't I got a job with a salary of £100,000+? It's not for the lack of trying. The truth of the matter is not, "Life is what you make it," it's, "Life is what OTHER PEOPLE LET YOU MAKE OF IT." Nevermind what the coward Cameron and his ConDem cronies say. At the moment he is one of the people at the top and I'm very much mistaken if he's not going to do anything he possibly can to keep it that way.

[HeadingNorth]

In the book Godel, Escher and Bach, Godel's theorems are used to explain emergence... complex behaviour on a different level deriving from simple mathematical functions. If anything Godel's theorems allow for the possibility of deterministic fate that may only be provable by actually deriving them, but not unprovable.

 

I only brought in Gödel as a demonstration that, even in something as rigorous as pure mathematics, some things can be unprovable, and can be known to be unprovable.

 

 

The argument that Destiny controls our every move is unprovable for other reasons, but it is still unprovable, and therefore all speculation on it is ultimately futile.

[flamingjimmy]

It seems from your post that your argument against fate is purely because it's too cruel to exist or hostile to your sense of free choice and control. Perhaps I have misunderstood.

 

As with any abstract philosophical concept, I don't understand how people can hold such absolutist viewpoints as to say "of course .... doesn't exist".

 

You see an abstract philosophical concept, I see a baseless unprovable assertion about the nature of reality.

 

Of course fate doesn't exist, just like of course unicorns and magic don't exist either.

 

The reason I say 'of course' is because there is precisely 0 evidence to support the existence of fate. There is literally no reason whatsoever to believe it apart from wishful thinking.

 

It's got nothing to do with me wanting to be in control or life being too harsh for me. The only reason I brought up starving orphan children was to highlight the ridiculousness of arguments like the one I saw on the first page that bad things happen so that we can 'learn from them' and 'educate our soul'.

[epiphany]

You see an abstract philosophical concept, I see a baseless unprovable assertion about the nature of reality.

 

What is a provable reality in your eyes (in the context of this thread - fate/determinism/free will etc.)? You surely have to be omniscient to know 100% what objective reality is, otherwise it's all as subjective as any other notion constructed by human consciousness.

 

You bring up the example of unicorns and fairies. Firstly, you can only live your life by the assumption they don't exist. It is rare that a human being would consider themselves to be in such a position as to know absolutely such things do not exist. This is a separate issue from belief or faith in unobserved entities. Secondly, as unicorns and fairies are observable entities (we can assume their non-existence on recurring non-sight of them), yet the intrinsic properties of destiny vs free will are abstract concepts (there is only philosophical ponderance to assume the existence or non-existence of either), the comparison seems flawed.

[flamingjimmy]

What is a provable reality in your eyes (in the context of this thread - fate/determinism/free will etc.)? You surely have to be omniscient to know 100% what objective reality is, otherwise it's all as subjective as any other notion constructed by human consciousness.

Well yes when you get down to it you can't really truly know anything. But that kind of thinking gets you knowhere;). If you truly think like that then there's no point in even having the word 'know' at all because you can never know anything, and there is no such thing as knowledge. The words would be almost pointless and could only ever be used in the context of 'I don't know'. But that would still be a meaningless sentence because you couldn't possibly know, so there'd be no point in stating it.

 

As such I'm perfectly happy to say that I know lots of stuff, and I'd wager that you are too.

 

In fact thinking about it that's not quite true, you could go with the whole 'I think, therefore I am' thing, that seems pretty solid to me.

You bring up the example of unicorns and fairies. Firstly, you can only live your life by the assumption they don't exist. It is rare that a human being would consider themselves to be in such a position as to know absolutely such things do not exist. This is a separate issue from belief or faith in unobserved entities. Secondly, as unicorns and fairies are observable entities (we can assume their non-existence on recurring non-sight of them),

Fine, switch the example to invisible unicorns that you can't touch or detect in any way except for some wishy washy spiritual claptrap, I'm still perfectly happy to say the sentence 'Of course invisible unicorns that you can't touch or detect in any way except the human spirit don't exist'.

 

yet the intrinsic properties of destiny vs free will are abstract concepts (there is only philosophical ponderance to assume the existence or non-existence of either), the comparison seems flawed.

It's not that abstract to me, if fate exists then there must be some mechanism by which it works and effects/controls the physical world around us.

 

Also, you didn't seem to address this, which seemed to be the part you were asking about before: The reason I say 'of course' is because there is precisely 0 evidence to support the existence of fate. There is literally no reason whatsoever to believe it apart from wishful thinking.

[Mel's Mum]

I like to think fate exists but, realistically, I think I only think of it on hindsight to explain away bad things (the everything happens for a reason theory). For example a couple of years ago I lost a very lucrative job and became homeless. Whilst living in a hostel I became friendly with a girl from another city and I'm now married to her brother! There is no way we would ever have met each other if me and his sister hadnt been in the same hostel at the same time. Now I like to think that is fate but it could just be that something good happening after a run of bad luck lessens the load, who knows.

[epiphany]

Also, you didn't seem to address this, which seemed to be the part you were asking about before: The reason I say 'of course' is because there is precisely 0 evidence to support the existence of fate. There is literally no reason whatsoever to believe it apart from wishful thinking.

 

I agree, I certainly don't have any evidence to believe fate exists, but equally I don't have any evidence free will, at least as far as I can conceive it, exists.

 

You of course make valid points about fate being wishful thinking, especially if you aren't that orphaned child (I see what you mean now!), but my point is that I see it as equally problematic to prove or disprove as any other notion of what determines each single moment. It seems the more you break it down, the less clear it becomes. What appears on the surface as if thought directs action, beneath that or "before the thought" so-to-speak, is what I can't seem to get my head around. I am reminded of Aristotle's flying arrow paradox whereby what determines the flight of the arrow also renders the arrow motionless at any given snapshot of time. In other words, while it may not be fate that ensured the arrow arrived at its destination, there was an unbroken sequence of infinitesimally small prior occurrences, each one determined by the last, that did.

 

Perhaps you have some material to help me understand what does drive us from one present moment to the next.

[Wildcat]

Of course fate doesn't exist, just like of course unicorns and magic don't exist either.

 

The reason I say 'of course' is because there is precisely 0 evidence to support the existence of fate. There is literally no reason whatsoever to believe it apart from wishful thinking.

 

What about cause and effect as a reason to believe that our actions are predetermined... or fated?

 

The argument against such a view involves metaphysical unprovables like a soul and free will...

 

A purely rational empirical viewpoint surely is that fate does exist? (Except not in a Mystic Meg kind of way obviously).

[Eater Sundae]

What about cause and effect as a reason to believe that our actions are predetermined... or fated?

 

The argument against such a view involves metaphysical unprovables like a soul and free will...

 

A purely rational empirical viewpoint surely is that fate does exist? (Except not in a Mystic Meg kind of way obviously).

 

The idea of Fate is anything but rational.

 

If I'm fated to die at, say, 60, then up to 60 I might as well ride a motrorcycle everywhere with my eyes shut. I might as well as I'll be safe.

 

If I'm fated to be financially well off, then what's the point of studying at school or even bothering to work. I'll be comfortably well off anyway.

 

Conversely, if I'm fated to be poor, then no matter how hard I work I'll always be poor.

 

If fate exists, then there is absolutely no point in ever making any decision. Fate would rule anyway.