Does this happen to girls in england?

[patty1142]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that in some of the cultures that practice FGM there is a belief (among the women) that if a baby being born touches the clitoris of an unmutilated woman the baby will die or be seriously disabled. If myths like that are being peddled it makes it very hard as you are arguing from so many angles.

I think that there needs to be an education programme in schools, that tells young girls (and boys) about this practice and how to get help if they fear they are at risk. All the kids should get this, not just those from "at risk" backgrounds, as one child may confide in a friend but not a teacher/police etc. Then the education should also be carried out at places of worship - mosques/churches/temples etc. People who know more about their respective religions are keen to point out that this is NOT a requiremtn of islam, christinaity etc, so lets get that message across in the places of worship so that kids and adults alike are being informed - some clearly DO believe it is part of their religion, but if all are told that it isn't then everyone is geting the same message.

Different hospital depts could also have poster up about this, like they do about domestic abuse etc - a few poster in waiting rooms and toilet cubicles, with info on how to get help so that people can turn to someone if they are at risk or have had this done to them.

I do wonder what happens to the women who have been fully infibulated when they arrive at the labour suite in the hospital to give birth. Do they have to be cut open to get the baby out? And more to the point, do our NHS docs re-infibulate afterwards?

Also, if the women arriving are UK born and bred, whatever their ethnic background could they not be interviewed about when it was carried out on them? They may have younger sibling at risk, or be at higher risk of doing this to their child?

 

in the real world maybe, however we live in the pc world, and thats never going to happen here.

[Numpty123]

British girls undergo horror of genital mutilation despite tough laws

Female circumcision will be inflicted on up to 2,000 British schoolgirls during the summer holidays – leaving brutal physical and emotional scars. Yet there have been no prosecutions against the practice

 

 

The Observer 25/7/10

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-children-british-law

 

I read that too. It says that 98% of girls in Somalia have it done so I assume with the large Somali community in Sheffield that it must happen to quite a few girls here.

 

It also says although the maximum penalty for allowing someone permanently resident in the UK to have it done is 14 years in jail although it's estimated that up to 2,000 girls a year have it done here or abroad.

 

I think, maybe this winter they should have a massive campaign in communities where this happens warning that the following summer prosecutions WILL happen. Then if they catch people do a few cases, maybe with light sentences such a community service or suspended sentences for maybe a year and then after that people still ignore it they should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.

 

I guess part of the problem is that a lot of the girls it happens to won't want to get their parents in trouble so prosecutions might be difficult, but when you have a situation like the girl in that article who at 12 had a suspected cyst which turned out to be years of unreleased menstrual blood and she has been left unable to have children I think her parents should be prosecuted whether she likes it or not. Not under the FGM laws maybe, but certainly for child neglect for not getting her medical attention sooner.

[Numpty123]

If you have evidence of it happening, report it to the police, that will place no pressure on your employment.

 

Is that really true?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7912810/Khyra-Ishaq-social-workers-live-in-fear-of-losing-their-jobs.html

 

To quote:

 

"Hilton Dawson, chief executive of the British Association of Social Workers, said “You can be sure that that any complaint would be taken seriously. The social worker may be suspended, or referred to the General Social Care Council".

 

This was said in response to a case where a child was starved to death and the mother had used complaints about racism or harrassment to stop the abuse being properly identified. Surely the same kind of complaint would apply even more so in FGM cases? If a social worker is pressing for your daughter to have an intimate examination for something that's based on religious/cultural practices I think a complaint about racism/harrassment would be taken very seriously and so some social workers might well be reluctant to do so if they believe it will threaten their job.

[taxman]

Is that really true?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7912810/Khyra-Ishaq-social-workers-live-in-fear-of-losing-their-jobs.html

 

To quote:

 

"Hilton Dawson, chief executive of the British Association of Social Workers, said “You can be sure that that any complaint would be taken seriously. The social worker may be suspended, or referred to the General Social Care Council".

 

This was said in response to a case where a child was starved to death and the mother had used complaints about racism or harrassment to stop the abuse being properly identified. Surely the same kind of complaint would apply even more so in FGM cases? If a social worker is pressing for your daughter to have an intimate examination for something that's based on religious/cultural practices I think a complaint about racism/harrassment would be taken very seriously and so some social workers might well be reluctant to do so if they believe it will threaten their job.

 

Well I'm sure widespread cuts to public services will help the situation no end.

[boyfriday]

Is that really true?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7912810/Khyra-Ishaq-social-workers-live-in-fear-of-losing-their-jobs.html

 

To quote:

 

"Hilton Dawson, chief executive of the British Association of Social Workers, said “You can be sure that that any complaint would be taken seriously. The social worker may be suspended, or referred to the General Social Care Council".

 

This was said in response to a case where a child was starved to death and the mother had used complaints about racism or harrassment to stop the abuse being properly identified. Surely the same kind of complaint would apply even more so in FGM cases? If a social worker is pressing for your daughter to have an intimate examination for something that's based on religious/cultural practices I think a complaint about racism/harrassment would be taken very seriously and so some social workers might well be reluctant to do so if they believe it will threaten their job.

 

That's why I suggested to the poster, who claims to be a social worker, that they report it to the police, rather than their employer.

 

I also don't believe a parents cries of 'racism' would be any deterrent to a professional who had solid evidence that a child was being abused, if the claim is true it's an excuse for lazy practices.

 

Conversely, if the social services have no evidence, and are merely making assumptions based on somebody's race or religion, then obviously that parent is likely to question the motivation behind an investigation, just as you or I would.

[Plain Talker]

I don't think that we should be routinely intimately examining children, as that would surely be a violation of the child, and actually a form of abuse in itself, wouldn't it?

 

Wouldn't there be issues as to who would be authorised to carry out such examinations, and how these people, themselves, would be policed.

 

After all, what sort of person would respond to a job advertisement which had "intimately examining children" as part of the job description? (the possibilities of endangerment of the child, there perturb me, even though I don't believe there is a paedophile lurking behind every bush or lamp-post.)

 

I do agree that the mother and step-father, in the case of Kyra Ishaaq definitely used their allegations of racism as a smoke screen to hide the abusive behaviour towards Kyra.

[quisquose]

That's why I suggested to the poster, who claims to be a social worker, that they report it to the police, rather than their employer.

 

I also don't believe a parents cries of 'racism' would be any deterrent to a professional who had solid evidence that a child was being abused, if the claim is true it's an excuse for lazy practices.

 

Conversely, if the social services have no evidence, and are merely making assumptions based on somebody's race or religion, then obviously that parent is likely to question the motivation behind an investigation, just as you or I would.

The problem is that it's not binary as you suggest there. The authorities will rarely be presented with 'solid evidence', or make assumptions with 'no evidence'. The reality will be much more grey, with evidence presented as described by Suffragette1 above in #123.

 

However, what I am finding very difficult to comprehend is that there have been no prosecutions. That is not just incompetence, that has to be deliberate avoidance by the authorities in investigating and prosecuting the law which has been in place for 25 years.

 

There's no need to consider routinely examining children, because these girls will routinely present themselves for medical inspection at some point in their lives anyway. Medical professionals must be presented with 'solid evidence' that British girls have been mutilated every day, and every day it must be ignored.

 

When this is discovered, and it might be up to 20 years later, the parents should be prosecuted. If doctors routinely ignore the evidence, they should be prosecuted.

[boyfriday]

The problem is that it's not binary as you suggest there. The authorities will rarely be presented with 'solid evidence', or make assumptions with 'no evidence'. The reality will be much more grey, with evidence presented as described by Suffragette1 above in #123.

Yes, you're right, I wasn't suggesting a smoking gun should be required to justify an investigation, the points Suffragette raised should be sufficient for the 'delicate' questions to be asked. What I was commenting on was a blanket of suspicion being cast over all members of certain communities and a heavy handed approach taken to address this issue, which wouldn't help the girls at all, in my opinion.

 

However, what I am finding very difficult to comprehend is that there have been no prosecutions. That is not just incompetence, that has to be deliberate avoidance by the authorities in investigating and prosecuting the law which has been in place for 25 years.

I don't really know. There are claims that 2000 girls from the UK are having this procedure carried out. That's a hell of a lot of people, when one considers the relatively small size of the community (mainly African) in the UK that engage in this practice, even though the legislation has been in place for 25 years, it's only in recent years that the population of the suspect group within the UK has enlarged significantly.

 

This Times article is interesting, it relates to an advert being run on Somalian TV, where a midwife is offering reversals. It also estimates the figure to be around 500 pa for female circumcisions.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5913979.ece

 

What I will say is that the fears of professionals who are responsible for policing this, of being called racist are a mis-direction, and where I hear such claims, I'm immediately suspicious of the people making it, it's too easy to use to disguise shortcomings in their own performance. A comprehensive audit trail of suspicions and the reasons for them, as outlined in post #123 as you pointed out, soon overcomes any accusations of that nature, successful prosecutions would only help with that.

 

There's no need to consider routinely examining children, because these girls will routinely present themselves for medical inspection at some point in their lives anyway. Medical professionals must be presented with 'solid evidence' that British girls have been mutilated every day, and every day it must be ignored. When this is discovered, and it might be up to 20 years later, the parents should be prosecuted. If doctors routinely ignore the evidence, they should be prosecuted.

I mentioned this earlier, part of the problem is these girls are circumcised young, they probably won't come to the attention of the British medical authorities until they're adults, by which time proving who was responsible, and obtaining the victim's consent to pursue a prosecution might be difficult.

 

There's also the problem that the vast majority of these circumcisions took place before the girls came to the UK, so I'm not sure they would be covered under English law.

 

"A study by the Foundation for Women’s Health, Research and Development (Forward), estimated that 66,000 women living in England and Wales had been circumcised, most before leaving their country of origin."

 

The chances of prosecution would be greatly enhanced if the evidence was fresh, the victim was a willing witness and the procedure took place in the UK.

[Suffragette1]

The problem is that it's not binary as you suggest there. The authorities will rarely be presented with 'solid evidence', or make assumptions with 'no evidence'. The reality will be much more grey, with evidence presented as described by Suffragette1 above in #123.

 

However, what I am finding very difficult to comprehend is that there have been no prosecutions. That is not just incompetence, that has to be deliberate avoidance by the authorities in investigating and prosecuting the law which has been in place for 25 years.

 

There's no need to consider routinely examining children, because these girls will routinely present themselves for medical inspection at some point in their lives anyway. Medical professionals must be presented with 'solid evidence' that British girls have been mutilated every day, and every day it must be ignored.

 

When this is discovered, and it might be up to 20 years later, the parents should be prosecuted. If doctors routinely ignore the evidence, they should be prosecuted.

 

I totally agree, the absence of actual prosecutions over a 25 year period cannot be attributed to incompetence or lack of evidence alone. As this article highlights, FGM'd women are presenting:

 

As a result, specialist doctors and midwives are struggling to cope with increasing numbers of women suffering from long-term health problems, including complications during pregnancy and childbirth.

 

My only concern would be that retrospective prosecutions of the parents would deter women from seeking medical and ante-natal care. However, this cannot nor should not continue to be ignored.

[quisquose]

What I will say is that the fears of professionals who are responsible for policing this, of being called racist are a mis-direction, and where I hear such claims, I'm immediately suspicious of the people making it, it's too easy to use to disguise shortcomings in their own performance. A comprehensive audit trail of suspicions and the reasons for them, as outlined in post #123 as you pointed out, soon overcomes any accusations of that nature, successful prosecutions would only help with that.

I agree. In fact I would say with regards to any 'racist' claims that it is actually 'racist' to turn a blind eye and not protect children from such a known, systematic pattern of abuse simply because they belong to a certain ethnic/religious grouping, who apparently don't deserve such protection.

 

I mentioned this earlier, part of the problem is these girls are circumcised young, they probably won't come to the attention of the British medical authorities until they're adults, by which time proving who was responsible, and obtaining the victim's consent to pursue a prosecution might be difficult.

 

There's also the problem that the vast majority of these circumcisions took place before the girls came to the UK, so I'm not sure they would be covered under English law.

 

The chances of prosecution would be greatly enhanced if the evidence was fresh, the victim was a willing witness and the procedure took place in the UK.

Do you actually need the consent of the victims to prosecute the abusers in these situations?

 

If the mutilations occurred before these girls came to the UK, then I very much doubt that they will be covered under UK law. But the law has been in place for 25 years, we need to start protecting British children now.

 

These crimes will be discovered eventually. It is rare for people to commit crimes where they know discovery is inevitable, but if they know discovery has no consequences then the law is impotent. Let's not forget the serious nature of the abuse here.

 

The parents will always be responsible, so they should always be prosecuted when 'solid evidence' is provided, even if it is 20 years later. And yes, I do recognise that the parents too are victims, and this should be taken into account.

 

What I cannot accept is that medical professionals must be confronted with 'solid evidence' every day, and every day they are turning a blind eye. This 'racist' cowardice must stop.

 

Only when the parents of UK born girls come to realise that mutilating their child will lead to certain prosecutions eventually, next year, or in 5 or 10 or 20 years, will this horrible crime be relegated to history.