Does this happen to girls in england?

[Suffragette1]

I agree. In fact I would say with regards to any 'racist' claims that it is actually 'racist' to turn a blind eye and not protect children from such a known, systematic pattern of abuse simply because they belong to a certain ethnic/religious grouping, who apparently don't deserve such protection.

 

Absolutely spot on and this is something that I have argued in the past and can only best sum up as 'negative discrimination'. In a culture where social commentators and even MPs debate about whether smacking should be criminalised, it is an absolute travesty that systematic and institutionalised abuse such as this is being ignored.

 

It is about time we put human rights above human rites.

[boyfriday]

Do you actually need the consent of the victims to prosecute the abusers in these situations?

Not so much consent, but a witness statement, certainly if they were adults at the time of the discovery, which we agree would be more than likely. There are many conventional assaults that take place in our society, that are not prosecuted because the victim was unwilling to co-operate.

If the mutilations occurred before these girls came to the UK, then I very much doubt that they will be covered under UK law. But the law has been in place for 25 years, we need to start protecting British children now.

Totally agree, assuming the lack of prosecutions is down to complacency, rather than lack of prosecutable cases.

These crimes will be discovered eventually. It is rare for people to commit crimes where they know discovery is inevitable, but if they know discovery has no consequences then the law is impotent. Let's not forget the serious nature of the abuse here.

That's a good point, but we also shouldn't forget that the perpetrators don't see it as abuse, they (and the communities they form part of) need re-educating, and reminding (through successful prosecutions) it's behaviour that's totally unacceptable in a civilised society.

 

The parents will always be responsible, so they should always be prosecuted when 'solid evidence' is provided, even if it is 20 years later. And yes, I do recognise that the parents too are victims, and this should be taken into account.

I can see potential defences to that assumption, especially if the girl is an adult when the mutilation is discovered, the 'solid evidence' has to be in the form of an admission or testimony from the girl or person carrying out the procedure.

What I cannot accept is that medical professionals must be confronted with 'solid evidence' every day, and every day they are turning a blind eye. This 'racist' cowardice must stop.

But are they being confronted with it everyday? If it's 500 (estimated) cases a year, then it's not something a doctor will be coming across routinely, especially as not everyone of those 500 is presenting themselves for examination or being suspected of having undergone the procedure.

 

I do wonder though that there must be instances where the procedure has gone wrong and the child has been brought to a hospital for treatment..those instances must represent a cast iron case and should be pursued vigorously.

 

Only when the parents of UK born girls come to realise that mutilating their child will lead to certain prosecutions eventually, next year, or in 5 or 10 or 20 years, will this horrible crime be relegated to history.

On that I 110% agree, it will not be happening here in 20 years time.

[Suffragette1]

That's a good point, but we also shouldn't forget that the perpetrators don't see it as abuse, they (and the communities they form part of) need re-educating, and reminding (through successful prosecutions) it's behaviour that's totally unacceptable in a civilised society.

 

That applies to virtually all forms of abuse. It is depressing that a significant number of child sex abusers actually believe that their abusee enjoys it.

 

If it is true that increasing numbers of FGM procedures are being carried out here in the UK (as reported in the Indie link I provided earlier), then these people also need to be prosecuted when their handy work comes to light.

[quisquose]

Not so much consent, but a witness statement, certainly if they were adults at the time of the discovery, which we agree would be more than likely. There are many conventional assaults that take place in our society, that are not prosecuted because the victim was unwilling to co-operate.

...

I can see potential defences to that assumption, especially if the girl is an adult when the mutilation is discovered, the 'solid evidence' has to be in the form of an admission or testimony from the girl or person carrying out the procedure.

If FGM is discovered in an adult then clearly they can make the unlikely claim that they chose to have it done as an adult (scar tissue may prove otherwise), or they may be unwilling to co-operate. But are they even being questioned about it?

 

If FGM is discovered in a girl then the 'solid evidence' is the FGM itself. The parents are guilty by association. Some of the communities where FGM is prevalent have much higher rates of teen pregnancies than average, so girls must be presenting their 'solid evidence' to medical professionals on a regular basis. As I said earlier, I recognise that the perpetrators are victims as well so I'm not looking for them to be locked up with the key thrown away, but they must face some consequences of their actions which are as bad, if not worse, than child rape imho.

 

But are they being confronted with it everyday? If it's 500 (estimated) cases a year, then it's not something a doctor will be coming across routinely, especially as not everyone of those 500 is presenting themselves for examination or being suspected of having undergone the procedure.

 

I do wonder though that there must be instances where the procedure has gone wrong and the child has been brought to a hospital for treatment..those instances must represent a cast iron case and should be pursued vigorously.

Individual doctors will not be presented with this every day obviously, but medical professionals will be, which is what I said.

 

I suspect most city-centre midwives must have come across a young girl that has been mutilated at least once. Do they report it? I suspect not very often.

[boyfriday]

If FGM is discovered in an adult then clearly they can make the unlikely claim that they chose to have it done as an adult (scar tissue may prove otherwise), or they may be unwilling to co-operate. But are they even being questioned about it?

We may never know, but the practical discussion that might ensue with a woman who'd suffered this procedure many years previously might be a difficult one. What if the woman claimed it was done before she entered the country for example? There's probably little the doctor/nurse can do with an uncooperative victim or reluctant witness.

 

This issue has to be addressed early in the lives of British girls (and their parents) who might be likely to undergo this procedure. The horse has well and truly bolted if we're hoping that change will come about entirely because of prosecutions, because to put it bluntly, they're not going to be successful in the majority of cases.

If FGM is discovered in a girl then the 'solid evidence' is the FGM itself. The parents are guilty by association.

They may well be, but establishing that and their complicity without additional evidence or mens rea, might not be as easy as we'd like it to be.

Some of the communities where FGM is prevalent have much higher rates of teen pregnancies than average, so girls must be presenting their 'solid evidence' to medical professionals on a regular basis.

I would have thought so.

As I said earlier, I recognise that the perpetrators are victims as well so I'm not looking for them to be locked up with the key thrown away, but they must face some consequences of their actions which are as bad, if not worse, than child rape imho.

..again, I agree with you 110%, I'm just pointing out why these prosecutions might not be as easy to come by as they should be.

 

Individual doctors will not be presented with this every day obviously, but medical professionals will be, which is what I said.

Sorry you gave the impression it's an everyday occurrence, the figures estimate that 66,000 women in the UK have suffered this procedure (most not in the UK, so not within the scope of English law), not all of them will be minors or of child bearing age, so I still maintain that it's not something medical professionals will be coming across routinely.

I suspect most city-centre midwives must have come across a young girl that has been mutilated at least once. Do they report it? I suspect not very often.

That frequency and outcome is entirely believable.

[hard2miss]

If removing the clitoris is happening here, then given the recent recent advances like the full face transplant maybe we should start saving them ?

 

I would have a couple if I could afford it, and many rich folk would end up covered in them like one big clit (something I think many of the rich as being anyhow).

[johncocker]

If removing the clitoris is happening here, then given the recent recent advances like the full face transplant maybe we should start saving them ?

 

I would have a couple if I could afford it, and many rich folk would end up covered in them like one big clit (something I think many of the rich as being anyhow).

 

:hihi::hihi:

[Artymags]

It sounds like a horrible experience for the young ladies involved.

 

I cant believe parents are willing to put their children through such pointless pain.

 

 

Religion and superstitious cultural beliefs... please people, stop living in make believe world. You only get one life, get used to that idea.

 

The trouble is that the mothers think they are doing right by their daughters in having this done to them. The reason being that the men of their culture will not marry a girl who has not had it done. (They are considered "unclean".)

In a culture where girls are denied a decent education and a career it is essential that they get a husband to support and protect them. Therefore the mothers do this to the girls so they will get the necessary husband.

 

It is the same thinking as was behind the possibly even more horrific practice of foot "binding" of girls in China which caused months and months of agony often ending in death from gangrene. If they didn't die they were crippled for life. Fortunately that has now been made illegal.

[llamatron]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that in some of the cultures that practice FGM there is a belief (among the women) that if a baby being born touches the clitoris of an unmutilated woman the baby will die or be seriously disabled. If myths like that are being peddled it makes it very hard as you are arguing from so many angles.

I think that there needs to be an education programme in schools, that tells young girls (and boys) about this practice and how to get help if they fear they are at risk. All the kids should get this, not just those from "at risk" backgrounds, as one child may confide in a friend but not a teacher/police etc. Then the education should also be carried out at places of worship - mosques/churches/temples etc. People who know more about their respective religions are keen to point out that this is NOT a requiremtn of islam, christinaity etc, so lets get that message across in the places of worship so that kids and adults alike are being informed - some clearly DO believe it is part of their religion, but if all are told that it isn't then everyone is geting the same message.

Different hospital depts could also have poster up about this, like they do about domestic abuse etc - a few poster in waiting rooms and toilet cubicles, with info on how to get help so that people can turn to someone if they are at risk or have had this done to them.

I do wonder what happens to the women who have been fully infibulated when they arrive at the labour suite in the hospital to give birth. Do they have to be cut open to get the baby out? And more to the point, do our NHS docs re-infibulate afterwards?

Also, if the women arriving are UK born and bred, whatever their ethnic background could they not be interviewed about when it was carried out on them? They may have younger sibling at risk, or be at higher risk of doing this to their child?

 

They will already have ripped open if they have had sex, the hole they leave is tiny!

[1ofTheseDays]

Oh isn't multiculturalism great?! what would this country do now without female genital mutilation? arn't we so enriched as a country now? thanks Labour