Toby Foster and Harrow Halal meat

[quisquose]

It doesn't all have to be stunned catz, there exist religious dispensations for Jews & Muslims, but the significant issue here is where it's sold for consumption in schools, obviously the purchasing authority are in a position to dictate the terms of its supply and most will insist on pre-stunning, Sheffield certainly do.

 

Halal doesn't forbid pre-stunning, it just requires that the animal is alive when it's slaughtered-it doesn't have to be conscious. Most conventional meat is slaughtered in this way too ie-slaughter of an unconscious animal.

But many devout Muslims will insist that the animals have to be fully conscious when they are slaughtered, and many Halal butchers in Sheffield will be supplying meat slaughtered this way. As much as most of us here might have been defending pre-stunned Halal, I think it is fair to say that nearly all of us would not defend Halal Proper where the animal is slaughtered fully conscious. What we cannot ignore is that irrespective of our discussions about the minutia of different stunning methods, the numbers of animals that are being slaughtered whilst fully conscious, and for religious excuses, are increasing.

 

If you agree, as you have hinted, that Halal Proper is cruel, then ponder the following. Does deciding to supply Halal Lite into state run canteens indirectly result in the reduction of cruelty, perhaps by satisfying demand for Halal overall, and reducing the demand for Halal Proper? Or does deciding to supply Halal Lite into state run canteens indirectly result in the increase of cruelty, by normalising it, and expanding the market for Halal overall in which the demand for Halal Proper can also be grown? My suspicion is on the latter.

 

Having said all that, the most encouraging news came a few weeks ago when the MEPs decided that all meat produced from animals slaughtered without stunning must be labelled accordingly. Not only is this correct with respect to both consumer choice and animal welfare, but it also prevents muggles like me inadvertently subsidising the religious demand for their animals to be slaughtered conscious. More than half the meat slaughtered in this cruel manner finds its way into the regular meat supply, but if Walls have to label their sausages with “Includes meat from slaughter without stunning” if they buy any of their MRM from a Halal abattoir, then they will not. The price of Halal Proper and Kosher products should rise accordingly. I hope the demand for animals to be slaughtered without stunning reverses the trend and falls dramatically.

[dacrlit]

06-08-2010, 17:54 #3

melthebell

*gets coat*

 

sigh here we go again

 

bothered about the suffering of the animals?

dont <removed> eat any......ITS ALL CRUEL

 

I am thinking of turning vegetarian.

[boyfriday]

But many devout Muslims will insist that the animals have to be fully conscious when they are slaughtered, and many Halal butchers in Sheffield will be supplying meat slaughtered this way. As much as most of us here might have been defending pre-stunned Halal, I think it is fair to say that nearly all of us would not defend Halal Proper where the animal is slaughtered fully conscious.

But this is whole point of the thread-halal meat in Harrow schools, not what individual Muslims choose to do as customers.

 

I'm sure most halal butchers source meat to satisfy their customers. In the case of schools the customer is the LEAs and based on what I've discovered thus far, they only purchase pre stunned meat..so no problem.

 

What we cannot ignore is that irrespective of our discussions about the minutia of different stunning methods, the numbers of animals that are being slaughtered whilst fully conscious, and for religious excuses, are increasing.

Not meat for the schools meals service though.

If you agree, as you have hinted, that Halal Proper is cruel, then ponder the following. Does deciding to supply Halal Lite into state run canteens indirectly result in the reduction of cruelty, perhaps by satisfying demand for Halal overall, and reducing the demand for Halal Proper? Or does deciding to supply Halal Lite into state run canteens indirectly result in the increase of cruelty, by normalising it, and expanding the market for Halal overall in which the demand for Halal Proper can also be grown? My suspicion is on the latter.

I don't really care what it does for the demand for halal meat overall, I wouldn't even be overly concerned about eating non stunned meat myself, I'm not going to forego my love for curries if I discover that the meat isn't pre-stunned. However in an ideal world, I would prefer that it was, and would be quite happy if legislation were introduced to ensure that was the case.

More than half the meat slaughtered in this cruel manner finds its way into the regular meat supply, but if Walls have to label their sausages with “Includes meat from slaughter without stunning” if they buy any of their MRM from a Halal abattoir, then they will not. The price of Halal Proper and Kosher products should rise accordingly. I hope the demand for animals to be slaughtered without stunning reverses the trend and falls dramatically.

I don't think Walls will be troubled by the halal argument since their sausages are usually made from pork

[boyfriday]

Let me explain in words of one syllable.

 

All animals are slaughtered in the same way and they are all drained of blood.

 

The difference is that Muslims do not allow pre-stunning so the animal is conscious for several minutes while it slowly dies feeling all the pain while it hangs upside down-dying.

 

A more humane method is to stun the animal first.

 

Of course you understand. You also promote the less humane Islamic procedure.

 

Oh dear, I do hope you're not anticipating a warm welcome at the Pearly Gates.

 

The fact you keep maintaining this position, has to be because you are ignorant of facts, you're deliberately lying or you have a vexatious agenda-none is a Christian virtue.

 

I've already provided evidence several times, that Muslims are able to stun animals, they don't do it all the time, but it doesn't make the meat non halal if they don't. The salient point is that the animal is alive when it has its throat slit, the same applies to non halal meat.

 

Muslim slaughterhouses are permitted to slaughter animals without stunning, which in my opinion is wrong. However the customers we're discussing in threads like this (schools), insist on pre-stunned halal meat, so that's precisely what happens.

 

You'll probably find most Westernised Muslims don't make a big deal of buying pre-stunned meat, the buyers at the major supermarkets who supply it will bear testimony to that.

[shanes teeth]

BF man! I know from past experiance that when trying to get an idea over to Grahame you have to go over and over it re-making the same point, but 22 pages of going over and over the same ground. God (?) I admire your tenacity!

[boyfriday]

BF man! I know from past experiance that when trying to get an idea over to Grahame you have to go over and over it re-making the same point, but 22 pages of going over and over the same ground. God (?) I admire your tenacity!

 

..lol, I feel like I've had my blood drained, shanes

[truman]

..lol, I feel like I've had my blood drained, shanes

 

You seem more stunned than anything........

[shanes teeth]

..lol, I feel like I've had my blood drained, shanes

 

Keep at it. Patience is a (Christian?) virtue!

[Grahame]

Oh dear, I do hope you're not anticipating a warm welcome at the Pearly Gates.

 

The fact you keep maintaining this position, has to be because you are ignorant of facts, you're deliberately lying or you have a vexatious agenda-none is a Christian virtue.

 

I've already provided evidence several times, that Muslims are able to stun animals, they don't do it all the time, but it doesn't make the meat non halal if they don't. The salient point is that the animal is alive when it has its throat slit, the same applies to non halal meat.

 

Muslim slaughterhouses are permitted to slaughter animals without stunning, which in my opinion is wrong. However the customers we're discussing in threads like this (schools), insist on pre-stunned halal meat, so that's precisely what happens.

 

You'll probably find most Westernised Muslims don't make a big deal of buying pre-stunned meat, the buyers at the major supermarkets who supply it will bear testimony to that.

 

Red. That is a contradiction in terms. Halal (legal) meat cannot be pre-stunned because it can cause death which is haraam (illegal).

 

Bazooka disagrees with you. He says stunning can kill an animal before it is slaughtered which means it is haraam (Illegal.)

 

The animal must be living before it is slaughtered in order to be halal (legal) Pre-stunning makes it illegal.

 

“Electrocution is frowned upon by many Muslims. Stunning the animal with a bolt-gun, as is the standard practice in FDA-approved slaughtering houses, may cause instantaneous death. All Muslims regard meat from such a slaughter to be haraam (unlawful) considering such meat as carrion, the remains of dead animals. In other cases, in some animals with thicker skulls, the bolt-gun has to be administered more than once, causing harm and suffering to the animal, which goes against the dictates of an Islamic slaughter.

 

The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group.

 

The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), which advises the government on how to avoid cruelty to livestock, says the way Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals.

 

Both the Jewish and Muslim religions demand that slaughter is carried out with a single cut to the throat, rather than the more widespread method of stunning with a bolt into the head before slaughter. (Because that makes it haraam which is illegal according to Islamic law.)

 

Kosher and Halal butchers deny their method of killing animals is cruel and have expressed anger over the recommendation.”

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

 

Pre-stunned meat is illegal according to Islamic law. Therefore it is not halal.

[boyfriday]

Red. That is a contradiction in terms. Halal (legal) meat cannot be pre-stunned because it can cause death which is haraam (illegal).

 

Bazooka disagrees with you. He says stunning can kill an animal before it is slaughtered which means it is haraam (Illegal.)

 

I pointed out the fact stunning can cause death many, many posts ago, probably amongst my contributions you dismissed as 'twaddle'.

 

I went on to explain how Bristol University had created a device that stuns without any risk of death..do you remember scoffing at he phrase 'return to pasture'? You obviously missed the point, even after I explained it to you..the test of the device included stunning an animal, which then recovered and went back to grazing. It's unlikely one on the receiving end of a captive bolt could enjoy the rolling pastures again.

 

So stunning with these electrodes is permissible, because there is no chance of death with a healthy animal. Obviously there will be hardcore Muslims who that wont be good enough for, but we're not talking about them, as they won't be in a position to supply halal meat into schools!

 

The animal must be living before it is slaughtered in order to be halal (legal) Pre-stunning makes it illegal.

It only makes it 'illegal' if it kills the animal, or there's a high risk of death-there's no mention that the animal has to be conscious, just alive.

“Electrocution is frowned upon by many Muslims.

No it isn't, read the link to the HFA website I've posted more than once.

Stunning the animal with a bolt-gun, as is the standard practice in FDA-approved slaughtering houses, may cause instantaneous death. All Muslims regard meat from such a slaughter to be haraam (unlawful) [/b]considering such meat as carrion, the remains of dead animals.

That's quite right, which is why they dont use the captive bolt to stun the livestock, they use electrodes.

In other cases, in some animals with thicker skulls, the bolt-gun has to be administered more than once, causing harm and suffering to the animal, which goes against the dictates of an Islamic slaughter.

..and you're still trying to maintain this is humane and best for animal welfare?

The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group.

I agree, whenever it doesn't include pre-stunning.

The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), which advises the government on how to avoid cruelty to livestock, says the way Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals.

Unlike the captive bolt, that sometimes has to be administered twice, in your words?

Kosher and Halal butchers deny their method of killing animals is cruel and have expressed anger over the recommendation.”

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

We're talking here about pre-stunned halal meat supplied to schools, not livestock that is killed without pre-stunning, we all agree that is wrong, but no one is being forced to eat it, which is the drift of the OP.

Pre-stunned meat is illegal according to Islamic law. Therefore it is not halal.

 

I'm afraid you're still wrong, as I and others have offered evidence that confirms pre-stunning isn't illegal under Islamic law, even the Halal Food Authority confirms so, and they're in a good position to know, this point has been raised in direct response to your posts many times. In any event, Muslims all over the world are eating pre-stunned meat, and that's the only test that's relevant.