What existed before the big bang? Something must have!

[Karis]

That's what I've been saying. The nothingness has to be something, which means it must have had a functional purpose before the big bang created time and space

 

By its very nature, nothingness is nothing. It's certainly not "something". Which, despite repeated attempts, you refuse to accept.

 

As has been said, the Human mind finds it impossible to comprehend the void. Or before. We know time and space are linked, so questions like before are meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe.

[Alcoblog]

For once I seem to have a non-stupid idea!

Thinking about this Big Bang conundrum today, I came up with this;

My first thought being if you were to get a strip of paper and mark Point A and Point B at either end, what would be the quickest way to get from A to B? The first obvious answer would be to draw a straight line from A to B ... this representing space and time. There is a quicker way though, if you fold the paper so that points A and B are touching each other. If you could do this in the physical world you can be at two places at the same time separated by as far apart and as long (time) apart as you could imagine.

Following this thought through, what about the Mobius strip? Take a strip of paper, twist it (through 180 degrees) and glue the ends together. now take a pencil and draw a line along the length of it. The line will eventually end up where you started although it appears on both sides of the paper. You have effectively changed two diamensions into one (ok... apart from the thickness of the paper but you know what I mean!) The line represents space and time and there is no beginning or no end - it's infinite and exists in a one diamensional state whilst at the same time existing in a parallel diamension.

This certainly does not prove anything concerning the Big Bang but shows that some wierd stuff happens when you bend space and time and it maybe along these lines we go to explain infinite time, infinite distance and parallel diamensions.

Well ... it's a thought that entertains me anyway....

[danot]

Sorry danot- I'm here to debate the issue, not amuse trolls

 

Here (again) is what I said-

 

Ok- if you're going to insist that a space requires a further space to exist in, or to expand into, then you're going to require an infinite regress of such spaces.

 

The 2nd space, which contains the first one, will similarly require a 3rd space to contain it.

 

The third space will require a 4th space, with, in turn, requires a 5t, etc..etc..etc

 

That never ends- it yields an infinite heirachy of higher spaces.

 

It may be that you're OK with that, but, when it comes to actual spaces, it cannot be, because we're talking about the creation of universes and hence, the creation of each of those spaces.

 

Space no.1 cannot exist until space no.2 does, because, on your original premise, that a space must be contained within a higher space, space no.1 cannot exist until it's container (space no.2) does.

 

Space no.2, similarly, cannot exist till space no.3 does, which, in turn can't exist untill....etc...etc.

 

Space no.1, in short, cannot exist until the entire infinite sequence of higherachy's of higher spaces actually exists in it's entirety- a position which is not possible as the sequence is infinite.

 

The only logical conclusion is that your original premise, that space must be contained, is wrong- thus the opposite must[/i] be true- that space does not require a further space to contain it.[/i]

 

now if you think-

 

 

 

is an appropriate reply to that, in the context of a discussion, then there's nothing more for me to say

 

however, it does show,in a logical manner, that space does not require a further space to contain it- if you still disagree with that, then now you need to point out where the argument is wrong.

Where does it show that this is true?. what reason do you have to believe it's not wrong. What reason do scientists have to credit themselves with this unwarranted sense of achievement when making theoretical presumption on something far beyond their understanding and technological capabilities?.

[Alcoblog]

RE: What existed before the big bang?

Just another thing I thought about whilst painting doors at my parents today;

How about, in the higher eschelons of relativity (to which we are not yet privvy), could the big bang be related to a thought? Say for instance the OP and this thread. Until the OP posted it, it simply did not exist ... it came from nowhere!

 

 

(It'll probably end up going nowhere too but I'm being serious)

[danot]

We proved in post #23 that this is a false assumption. It invariably leads to a self-contradiction.

I fear there will always be a contradiction regarding this subject.

[danot]

By its very nature, nothingness is nothing. It's certainly not "something". Which, despite repeated attempts, you refuse to accept.

How can nothing create something Karis?

 

Posted by Karis

As has been said, the Human mind finds it impossible to comprehend the void. Or before. We know time and space are linked, so questions like before are meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe.

Correction!.. They are meaningless to you.

[danot]

RE: What existed before the big bang?

Just another thing I thought about whilst painting doors at my parents today;

How about, in the higher eschelons of relativity (to which we are not yet privvy), could the big bang be related to a thought? Say for instance the OP and this thread. Until the OP posted it, it simply did not exist ... it came from nowhere!

 

 

(It'll probably end up going nowhere too but I'm being serious)

So what happens when a mod closes it?.. the end is nigh!

[JFKvsNixon]

I like this theory!

 

It does have a beautiful symmetry to it, and a simpleness that I find appealing.

[uppercut]

That only raises the question of what existed before God in order to create God. It doubles the size of the problem without solving it.

 

nothing created God that is the whole concept of God. God essentially means the uncreated creator. God is eternal you can only take things as far back as God once u start getting into who created God what you are talking about is no longer God.

[pcspb1]

Here's another theory...

 

Schroedingers cat - multiple worlds theory (Sort of!)

 

What if we (inside the universe(The Box) as we know it) are 'schroedingers cat?

 

We are alive and dead at the same time - ie: we exist, but then again - we don't. We, and the universe both exist - yet don't exist at the same time.

 

Outside our box, there may have been billions of big bangs, resulting in billions of realities, where in those realities, people similar to us (well, actually us in fact) are debating this on the same Sheffield Forum.

 

My point before I start yelling wubble, and being trussed in the strait jacket is this:

 

There may have been a billion big bangs. Each of those may have created an expanded universe. Each of those expanded universes may be identical, conversely, they may not. We might be having this conversation a billion times over with the same result, or we may be having this conversation a billion times with different results. The key to the answer that we will never know the truth about is in the observance. We inside our box, observe our reality, because that is all we know. We do not know what is outside the box, because we can't observe it, so it is incredible to us to comprehend the existance of anything outside our known universe, or the existance of anything before we were placed in our box.

 

Of course, observing this reality like this, does lend towards us being placed in the box in the first place, which would infer to us in our known reality that something would have to have existed in order to place us in the box...

 

Truth is, I don't care what came before the big bang, it's not going to change my existance - I wouldn't want to live forever, I quite like my ever decreasing circle - nor would I want to slip between the universes to see how green their grass is. I'm happy with my lot here, how it already is to me. I like my life, you probably like yours .

 

Next time around though, I want to wake up, be born into a world without politics or religion. Still be good to have the forum me thinks