Minimum wage vs pension & benefits levels

[Cyclone]

It raised the pay for many jobs because those people were working for slave labour wages - this still doesn't mean that NMW was set at a reasonable level when it was introduced - it was too low.

 

There are people who's educational or skill levels are quite low - not everyone is ultra intelligent. Do you mean that these people should be kept on low wages & exploited all their lives through no fault of there own. Skilled jobs are not the only ones which are useful to society - we can't all be brain surgeons but a man who empties the bins etc is still performing a worthwhile and much needed service and should be properly remunerated for it. There are many jobs which have low skill levels but are still important.

Do you think that everyone, no matter how stupid and skill-less deserves to be paid more than the current NMW? If so, then I guess you need to justify why.

 

My son is a qualified tradesman working for a well known firm of consultants who, believe it or not, are comparable with an employer out of a Charles Dickens book such as "Scrooge". We dont THINK he's worth more - we KNOW he's worth more.

 

So he should find another employee that pays a reasonable wage for the skills he has.

[Cyclone]

"in the old days" didn't lots of women choose to stay at home and raise their kids rather than work ?

 

And are they now drawing a state pension, with them not having made an NI contributions?

[Cyclone]

Pension credit is paid to people regardless of whether they have worked or not. These people may not have worked a single day in their lives. It's more than minimum wage when associated benefits are taken into account.

 

Somebody who is working deserves at least the same as what is paid to someone whom might have never ever worked. Especially when they are the ones whom are paying for the others pension.

 

What's the deal with someone who didn't work. They won't have paid any NI, so what are they entitled to?

 

It appears to be justified to me that someone who has (in most cases) worked for 40 years and contributed to the economy is given (has paid for) more than someone who has no valuable skills and is only being paid as much as they are due to labour market manipulation by the government.

Pensions and NMW are not comparable, one is a defined minimum pay to stop advantage taking of the low skilled. The other is a payment (for which most have actually paid in) to allow people to live a reasonable retirement.

[lauren84]

And are they now drawing a state pension, with them not having made an NI contributions?

 

In the old old days women gave up work as soon as they were married

[Ms Macbeth]

Scuse me, but I'm paying into a private penison now, but I fully expect to get my state pension as well since I'm paying my NI stamps too. If you want to make it so I don't get a state pension because - unlike the feckless Gordo - I was prudent enough to save in the good times, well if you want to do that I'd like those stamps back please so I can stick them in my pension.

 

I think you've misunderstood. Someone retiring now (as I have) with a company or private pension, will still get their state pension, and I see no reason for that to change.

 

RD and I were advocating the state pension should be paid at the higher level to all, with those on very large incomes paying more tax. In the post you quote Ruby said: It'd be much cheaper and easier to administer to dispense with all the universal and means tested freebies, make the pension up to a reasonable living 'wage', and then claw any excess back in tax'.

 

Currently the State pension basic is £97.50, State Pension + Pension Credit is £130.

 

IMO - unless you are going to receive a substantial company/private pension, they often not worth the contributions. I didn't expect the state pension to be worth so little, or to have a means tested element when I started contributing to my company pension. However its a difficult one to judge, as who knows what it'll be worth in years to come.

[Guest]

Do you think that everyone, no matter how stupid and skill-less deserves to be paid more than the current NMW? If so, then I guess you need to justify why.

 

I've already justified it - read my post about the binmen etc. You spend a lot of time talking about people who are "stupid & skill-less" your either extremely uncaring or your intelligence is suspect too.

I wonder exactly how super intelligent & highly skilled you really are - you certainly know little about life in the real world.

 

So he should find another employee that pays a reasonable wage for the skills he has.

 

He's been doing this for a long time - have you forgotten how scarce jobs are.

That's why all the benefits moaners (and the better off, who rant about paying taxes) are going to have to live with it. Neither Cameron, nor anyone else can make everybody work unless he's going to create about 3 million jobs.

[rubydazzler]

I think you've misunderstood. Someone retiring now (as I have) with a company or private pension, will still get their state pension, and I see no reason for that to change.

Thanks, you're right, he misunderstood my point.

 

I've just checked and the basic tax allowance 2010/11 seems to be roughly £6,500, so everyone should be paying tax on anything over that? But when certain benefits aren't liable for tax, it makes a nonsense of the basic tax allowance and discriminates against people who've made the effort to save or pay into a private pension, which as you rightly remark sometimes just isn't worth it.

 

Surely it'd make more sense to increase the tax allowances substantially, substantially reduce the rate of tax for lower paid, including pensioners, and dispense with the WTC, PC, WFA, etc etc? It only makes sense if you want to keep a lot of civil servants in jobs?*

 

*Admits to knowing nothing about claiming benefits and waits to be corrected by more experienced heads.

[Cyclone]

I've copied the bit you inserted into the middle of my post as I assume it was meant to be a reply.

I've already justified it - read my post about the binmen etc. You spend a lot of time talking about people who are "stupid & skill-less" your either extremely uncaring or your intelligence is suspect too.

You made reference that not everyone could be intelligent and skilled. The flip side of that is stupid and unskilled.

I don't spend a lot of time talking about them though, just this thread to be exact where it's entirely relevant.

I wonder exactly how super intelligent & highly skilled you really are - you certainly know little about life in the real world.

I live in the real world, I have a real job, I guess I know as much as the next person.

 

He's been doing this for a long time - have you forgotten how scarce jobs are.

That's why all the benefits moaners (and the better off, who rant about paying taxes) are going to have to live with it. Neither Cameron, nor anyone else can make everybody work unless he's going to create about 3 million jobs.

I'm neither a benefit moaner nor a tax moaner. Nor am I a NMW wage moaner like you. I guess you're just going to have to live with it as well.

[Wildcat]

That's how it currently is. It's not an argument for raising the level though.

 

An argument for raising the level of the NMW, is that the free market does a very poor job of determining the economic and social worth of work.

 

An obvious example is the measly wages that Care workers receive for jobs that most people would be unable to do.

 

This article expands on that point.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/dec/14/new-economics-foundation-social-value

 

Another reason is that a host of studies show income inequality is damaging to society.

 

Here is just one of many examples, this one related to Child Well Being.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/335/7629/1080

 

We should take income inequality far more seriously and the NMW is just one tool at our disposal for doing that, but one that unquestionably should be used.

[Guest]

I've copied the bit you inserted into the middle of my post as I assume it was meant to be a reply.

 

You made reference that not everyone could be intelligent and skilled. The flip side of that is stupid and unskilled.

I don't spend a lot of time talking about them though, just this thread to be exact where it's entirely relevant.

I live in the real world, I have a real job, I guess I know as much as the next person.

I'm neither a benefit moaner nor a tax moaner. Nor am I a NMW wage moaner like you. I guess you're just going to have to live with it as well.

 

The lack of intelligence does not necessarily mean stupid.

 

Did you not start the thread "better off on benefits"?

Were you not benefit moaning or has someone stolen your identity?