mj.scuba Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 No. He doesn't mean things like that at all. I didn't realise you were stupid enough to fall for the lie that 'they hate us for our freedom'. They don't give a crap that we elect our leaders and educate women. It's more that they don't like being bombed and invaded by us. Like it or not, that does just about sum it up. Why did 9/11 happen then? We only invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban had harboured Bin Laden and crew and allowed them to plan and train there. Pre 9/11, the only recent conflict in the Middle East we had been involved in was Iraq, and that was to aid another Middle Eastern country that had been invaded by a dictator. In the Balkans, we became involved to stop the bloodshed of Muslims. You can argue it was about US foreign policy, but who makes US foreign policy? Elected politicians do, freely elected by the people, so even that boils down to freedom in a way. What 'm getting at is; the extremists do not need excuses like cartoons or book burnings to hate the west, they hate the west already, and at the end of the day here in the West we are free to do things like the cartoons, so again it is fundamentally about our freedoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 Why is it about freedom of speech? I don't think anyone has said the cartoonist should have been censored. What I have been arguing is that since the cartoons are no different from the type Der Sturmer published in the 30s, it is hypocrisy for Angela Merkel to be seen to condone and reward their publication. Just as it would be hypocrisy for her to then go on and criticise Islamic extremist publications that do similar. Hate breeds hate. We are better off without it, or where there is a legitimate freedom of speech defence condemning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 Like it or not, that does just about sum it up. Why did 9/11 happen then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_September_11_attacks You can argue it was about US foreign policy, but who makes US foreign policy? Elected politicians do, freely elected by the people, so even that boils down to freedom in a way. In an illogical retarded way, perhaps. But not in an actual way that makes sense. It absolutely was about US foreign policy. It does not boil down to them hating us for our freedom because the fact that we elected our leaders is incidental to what our leaders did. IF our leaders were unelected kings they would still hate us. It's what our leaders did that they hate, not how they were elected. That has precisely 0 to do with it, and I don't see what could possibly make anyone think it does. What 'm getting at is; the extremists do not need excuses like cartoons or book burnings to hate the west, they hate the west already, and at the end of the day here in the West we are free to do things like the cartoons, so again it is fundamentally about our freedoms.Just saying it is about our freedoms doesn't make it true. They don't hate us because we are free to draw cartoons of their prophet, that is not important, they hate us because we do draw cartoons of their prophet. This is an important and significant difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stackrock Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 But not all everyday non Muslims do it, it's a small % that are that way inclined. If the same small % is evident in the Muslim community then given their much smaller number within the total population, you're talking about a pretty small number of people. The other thing you need is that Islamists, the ones you see shouting and screaming on the streets of Britain and abroad have a totally different mindest to the 'everyday Muslim', who generally has a conservative nature. But the fact remains organisations of Muslim leaders always denounce the activities of extremists, it's just that we dont want to listen or the news gatherers feel it won't increase their sales. ..so that would put billions into the hands of the farm owners, how would that help ordinary Afghans? How so? The West needs their oil, it's a symbiotic commercial relationship, that supercedes religious and racial boundaries, dont be fooled by all this spouting of rhetoric by the likes of Blair & Bush. But that's a nebulous statement, the West has interfered in the administrations of Middle Eastern countries for decades, I wonder what their view might be now if we hadn't given their extremists reasons to hate us? the other option is take it all by force and share the spoils in the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 I think the usual estimates for numbers were around a million people. A million? I stand corrected, that's a huge number in anybody's language! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossdog Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 You have made an argument that Angela Merkel's behaviour is not illegal, no one has suggested it is. Clearly however, the cartoons are offensive to muslims in that they equate the prophet with terrorism. They pander to an erroneous and dangerous perception advanced by the far right and by racists. Whether the cartoons are illegal or not, is irrelevant to the issue. The issue being that the German Chancellor is rewarding a cartoonist (not merely defending a right) who is known and for producing inflammatory and offensive cartoons. Whether this constitutes a crusade or not, it is not the behaviour you expect of a responsible leader. Especially not one that leads a country where the legal application of moral rules on causing offence and racism makes this clearly hypocritcal. Ps I have just double checked. No one has mentioned crusades before you have. Why introduce it as a point to score against? Straw man? Cartoons offensive to Muslims?................tell me something in the West that is not offensive to Muslims apart from coming here to better their standard of living! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stackrock Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 cartoons offensive to muslims?................tell me something in the west that is not offensive to muslims apart from coming here to better their standard of living! mossdog has a valid point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffragette1 Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 A million? I stand corrected, that's a huge number in anybody's language! There was, I recall, an estimated 1,000,000 people. I've been on plenty of protests and demos in my time and have never been on anything of that magnitude, as Wildcat said at times it was static. The only one that I can think of that came near to it, was the anti-pit closure one of 1992, where I marched with Paul Foot and Jeremy Corbyn. It rained all day and by the time we arrived at Hyde Park (I think it was) it was like the Somme; we were a very bedraggled sorry looking lot. There were about 15 of us at the anti-Hooters protest in Sheffield a couple of years ago, that was a lacklustre affair!:hihi: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 Cartoons offensive to Muslims?................tell me something in the West that is not offensive to Muslims apart from coming here to better their standard of living! ...which begs the question, why did Bush & Blair have an unnatural interest in Iraq and Afghanistan other than ultimately for commercial reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 Cartoons offensive to Muslims?................tell me something in the West that is not offensive to Muslims apart from coming here to better their standard of living! Technology, democracy, our culture, family values etc. very little is offensive to muslims. But make a picture of their prophet and strap a bomb to it and it quite clearly becomes offensive to all muslims not just extremists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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