spindrift Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Talking of duplicity, saying "the Nazi government was really rather involved in the running of Xian Churches" is rather different from explaining the nazis destroyed christian churches. Why would you want to mitigate what the nazis actually did? The only people the pope smeared were nazis, I can't help it if you see "atheists" and "nazis" in the same sentence and immediatley leap to completely erroneous conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffragette1 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Well then this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree, because to me that is precisely what is wrong with it. The world is a very different place now from when Catholicism was born. People can either recognise that and move on, or they can stay in the dark ages like the leaders of the Catholic church. Quite, this is precisely what is wrong with it, it needs to modernise as I have highlighted on numerous occasions. Allow female clergy; end the celibacy rule; allow contraception; accept that AIDS and other STIs can be prevented by wearing a condom; accept and do not condemn homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindrift Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 accept that AIDS and other STIs can be prevented by wearing a condom; AIDS prevention rates with a condom = 90% (WHO) AIDS prevention rates via abstinence = 100% No single body does more to fight AIDS and help the victims than the catholic church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Talking of duplicity, saying "the Nazi government was really rather involved in the running of Xian Churches" is rather different from explaining the nazis destroyed christian churches. Why would you want to mitigate what the nazis actually did? "mitigate" Correcting the lies of Christian apologists isn't to "mitigate" the crimes of the Nazis. A small proportion of individual Christians and Christian groups opposed the Nazis and were destroyed. Most Christians and Christian groups largely went along with the Nazis and were not destroyed, far from it the Nazis amongst other things continued to give them the 'church tax'. Given that Germany was overwhelmingly Christian the Nazis couldn't possibly have risen to power and enjoyed such enthusiastic support otherwise. The only people the pope smeared were nazis, I can't help it if you see "atheists" and "nazis" in the same sentence and immediatley leap to completely erroneous conclusions. How is it a "smear" to falsely describe genocidal maniacs as atheists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffragette1 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 accept that AIDS and other STIs can be prevented by wearing a condom; AIDS prevention rates with a condom = 90% (WHO) AIDS prevention rates via abstinence = 100% No single body does more to fight AIDS and help the victims than the catholic church. I said 'can' be prevented. And yes, we all know the Catholic Church's stance on any issue pertaining to sex. Besides, how dare a bunch of self-enforced celibate men (supposedly) preach to others on matters of sex? How anyone can take the Catholic Church remotely seriously is utterly beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindrift Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 "mitigate" Correcting the lies of Christian apologists isn't to "mitigate" the crimes of the Nazis. A small proportion of individual Christians and Christian groups opposed the Nazis and were destroyed. Most Christians and Christian groups largely went along with the Nazis and were not destroyed, far from it the Nazis amongst other things continued to give them the 'church tax'. Given that Germany was overwhelmingly Christian the Nazis couldn't possibly have risen to power and enjoyed such enthusiastic support otherwise. How is it a "smear" to falsely describe genocidal maniacs as atheists? Hitler believed in all sorts of whacky stuff, paganism and atavistic ambitions (like defeating the slavs). He used the church if it was expedient, over 2600 catholic priests were sent to Dachau. The Polish catholic church was ripped apart. I think we can agree the nazis did not follow the teachings of Christ. Hitler may not have been an atheist, most would agree he deviated from the path of virtue, which is what the pope said. The Papal Encyclical "With Burning Anxiety" of March 1937 marked the Catholic Church as the first major international organisation to condemn Nazism at a time when Britain's poilcy towards Hitler was Appeasement. Within Germany resistance to the Nazis was led by promenent Church figures like Bishop Galen of Münster, who condemned the T4 programme from the pulpit. Pope Pius XII has been nominated to be listed as Righteous Among the Nations at the Yad Vashem for his efforts to save Jews during the war. The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps. http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html The Archbishop of Munich, Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber, led the Catholic opposition in Germany against the Nazis. In an Advent 1933 sermon, he preached: "Let us not forget that we were saved not by German blood but by the blood of Christ!" in response to Nazi racism. In 1934 the Cardinal "narrowly missed a Nazi bullet", while in 1938 a Nazi mob broke the windows in his residence. Even though he was over seventy and in poor health, he still led the Catholic German resistance against Hitler. In Lent 1937 Pope Pius XI issued the encyclical "Mit brennender Sorge" (With burning sorrow) with the help of German bishops and Cardinal Pacelli (later Pope Pius XII). It was smuggled into Germany and read in all German Catholic churches at the same hour on Palm Sunday 1937. Pope Pius XII and many Catholics did not remain "silent." Could 860,000 Jewish lives be saved by "silent" indifference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindrift Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 12% of all AIDS care worldwide is provided by Catholic church organizations, while 13% is provided by Catholic nongovernmental organizations, meaning that Catholic church-related organizations are providing some 25% of the AIDS care worldwide-making it the largest institution in the world providing direct AIDS care.29, 30 29“Matrimonial Fidelity and Chastity to Prevent AIDS,” Vatican Information Service, June 28, 2001. 30 Karen DeYoung, “AIDS Challenges Religious Leaders,” Washington Post, August 13, 2001. Condoms4Life.org http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sccsux Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 How is it a "smear" to falsely describe genocidal maniacs as atheists? It's not a smear. It's a lie. Maybe the pope should do a little reading of his holey book (concentrating on the 10 commandments:hihi:). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindrift Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Originally Posted by plekhanov How is it a "smear" to falsely describe genocidal maniacs as atheists? he didn't. Why are you so angry about stuff he didn't say? He said: "As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society," BBC News - Row after Pope's remarks on atheism and Nazis The Pope, as head of the church, is saying the nazis were Godless. I am more than happy to stand corrected here, but all I can see is that the pope is saying Nazi action can be classed as atheist extremism. The Holy Father is absolutely right: godlessness is the heart of Nazism. When Germans rejected their Christian roots, they reverted to racist paganism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithster Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 "As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society," And as we reflect on the sobering lessons of the last two thousand years, let us never forget how the inclusion of god and religion in public life ultimately leads to oppression, mass murder, intolerance, hatred and war. The man claims to be god's representative on earth, yet he is possibly the biggest hypocrite to be found anywhere on this planet. One of his holy commandments is 'Thou shalt not bear false witness'. Well I wonder what the victims of the rapists who he LIED to cover for would have to say about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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