The Pope's Visit

[flamingjimmy]

It all makes me wonder was Ratzinger really as unwilling a participant in the Hitler youth as he says he was. His skill at using deception to scapegoat his ideological opponents for the world's ills, plus his arch conservatism would certainly not have been out of place in that organisation.

C'mon bro he was only like 15 or something, in any case he's a paedophile enabler and is partially responsible for millions of people getting aids, we don't need any more sticks.

[donkey]

C'mon bro he was only like 15 or something, in any case he's a paedophile enabler and is partially responsible for millions of people getting aids, we don't need any more sticks.

 

There were plenty of teenagers who were fervent Nazis, until after the war, when it suddenly became very hard to find anyone in Germany who hadn't - like ratzinger - secretly opposed nazi ideology all along.

[milquetoast1]

There were plenty of teenagers who were fervent Nazis, until after the war, when it suddenly became very hard to find anyone in Germany who hadn't - like ratzinger - secretly opposed nazi ideology all along.

I imagine that the frequent argument that Ratzinger had no choice but to join the Hitler Youth must be quite insulting to those that actually did choose not to join.

 

Google "Father Rupert Berger", a man who has said that he is puzzled by the claims that Ratzinger had no choice.

 

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/worldview/090209/analysis-the-pope-and-hitler-youth

 

Berger, now 81, was ordained a Catholic priest alongside Joseph Ratzinger and his brother, Georg, in 1951 in the beautiful church in the center of the town where they all grew up together.

But there was something that set their two families apart.

 

Berger's family sympathized with the Catholic resistance to Nazism in the town. Rupert was the same age as Joseph Ratzinger and at 14 years old he refused to join Hitler Youth. His family suffered as a result. He told me in an interview in 2005 that his father was sent to Dachau. He returned after the war and became the mayor.

 

Ratzinger's father was a policeman. The family was never affiliated with the Nazi party. But the Ratzingers chose to go with the vast majority of Germany and acquiesce to the regulations requiring 14 year olds to join Hitler Youth. They wanted to survive and allow their two sons to focus on academics in the seminary. So Ratzinger and his brother joined at 14 and went through with the parades and the salutes to the Fuehrer. Ratzinger also served briefly with a German army anti-aircraft unit just before the end of the war.

 

When I interviewed Berger in April 2005, just after Ratzinger had been elevated to the papacy, he spoke well of Ratzinger's intellect and discipline as a young man. But he said he couldn't understand why Ratzinger had insisted for so long in so many public statements that no one had a choice but to join Hitler Youth.

 

''It was a hard time to live, and there were hard choices to make," Berger said.

 

A difficult choice of course, but a choice nonetheless. Ratzinger's claim that he had no choice is disingenuous imho. My opinion of Ratzinger would be higher if he said he made the wrong choice. My disagreement with him is not what he did as a 15yr old, but how, once again, he puts public opinion ahead of the truth as an old man.

[mj.scuba]

I think we need a reality check. Ratzinger was 14 when he joined the Hitler Youth. According to milquetoast1's post above, 14 year olds were required to join the HY. If other kids at the time like Rupert Berger didn't join, was that down to "their choice", or was it actually their parents choice? If Berger's parents were already part of a Catholic resistance against the Nazis, it seems that decision would have been taken for him. Can we really hold Ratzinger responsible for his parents not refusing to let him join, when it was a legal requirement at the time, and his father was a local copper? Come on wake up.

[milquetoast1]

I think we need a reality check. Ratzinger was 14 when he joined the Hitler Youth. According to milquetoast1's post above, 14 year olds were required to join the HY. If other kids at the time like Rupert Berger didn't join, was that down to "their choice", or was it actually their parents choice? If Berger's parents were already part of a Catholic resistance against the Nazis, it seems that decision would have been taken for him. Can we really hold Ratzinger responsible for his parents not refusing to let him join, when it was a legal requirement at the time, and his father was a local copper? Come on wake up.

 

Perhaps you did not understand what I was getting at, or perhaps my point was not clear. I was not critical of Ratzinger as a teenager, I was critical of him as an old man explaining his past.

 

He has simply said that he had no choice, despite the fact that others in his village did bravely refuse to join. There was evidently a choice.

 

I can totally appreciate that it was a very difficult time, but I would much prefer an honest admission of regret, that with hindsight the choice made by himself and/or his father was wrong, that he wished he had taken the principled stance of his neighbours. It would actually increase my respect for him if he was to make statements as a human being, rather than an 'infallible' leader of a church.

[spindrift]

The pope's own cousin was murdered by the nazis.

 

Those who say he should have refused to comply with the nazis have no idea what they are talking about.

[mj.scuba]

Perhaps you did not understand what I was getting at, or perhaps my point was not clear. I was not critical of Ratzinger as a teenager, I was critical of him as an old man explaining his past.

 

He has simply said that he had no choice, despite the fact that others in his village did bravely refuse to join. There was evidently a choice.

 

I can totally appreciate that it was a very difficult time, but I would much prefer an honest admission of regret, that with hindsight the choice made by himself and/or his father was wrong, that he wished he had taken the principled stance of his neighbours. It would actually increase my respect for him if he was to make statements as a human being, rather than an 'infallible' leader of a church.

 

I disagree. He was only a minor at the time. If other kids didn't join, I would hesitate to say that was their choice, more likely their parents choice. Same goes for Ratzinger, only his parents decided for him that they would comply.

Good on those parents that did take a stance, but we really can't shoulder the responsibility for a decision to join or not to join on the 14 year olds of the time. How can a minor be expected to decide to join a youth movement or see their families punished? It's a no brainer. Any decision to be martyrs would have been the parents decision.

[cgksheff]

I imagine that the frequent argument that Ratzinger had no choice but to join the Hitler Youth must be quite insulting to those that actually did choose not to join.

 

Google "Father Rupert Berger", a man who has said that he is puzzled by the claims that Ratzinger had no choice.

 

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/worldview/090209/analysis-the-pope-and-hitler-youth

 

 

 

A difficult choice of course, but a choice nonetheless. Ratzinger's claim that he had no choice is disingenuous imho. My opinion of Ratzinger would be higher if he said he made the wrong choice. My disagreement with him is not what he did as a 15yr old, but how, once again, he puts public opinion ahead of the truth as an old man.

 

 

Why don't you quote the bit where Berger says:

When I asked him why he thought Ratzinger obeyed the rules and joined the Hitler Youth, Berger replied: ''You could ask the majority of Germans this question. There was such high pressure on everyone. He was too young to do a conscious resistance."

?

 

 

Some more opinions as to the situation:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-04-23-new-pope-defied-Nazis_x.htm

 

Tuchel, the director of the German Resistance Memorial in Berlin, said that even in wartime Germany young men like Ratzinger could find quiet ways to defy authority.

 

"There is always a choice. You have to go into the Hitler Youth, but then it is your decision if you are going to be an active member," Tuchel said. "You have to go into the labor service, but it's your decision if you're very active. ... You had no choice to go into the army, but it is your decision how long you stay."

[spindrift]

Ratzinger chose to desert the German army, that's why he became a POW.

[boyfriday]

I think we need a reality check. Ratzinger was 14 when he joined the Hitler Youth. According to milquetoast1's post above, 14 year olds were required to join the HY. If other kids at the time like Rupert Berger didn't join, was that down to "their choice", or was it actually their parents choice? If Berger's parents were already part of a Catholic resistance against the Nazis, it seems that decision would have been taken for him. Can we really hold Ratzinger responsible for his parents not refusing to let him join, when it was a legal requirement at the time, and his father was a local copper? Come on wake up.

 

Totally agree with that scuba, condemning a child for their activities as a child or the actions of their would be reminiscent of Nazi Germany.