Angry at schools dictatorship/need advice.

[Mr Prime]

When I was a child in school I made sure I didn't break the rules, but first I had to learn the rules, and if I did happen to break them, I would make sure it didn't happen a second time, such is the lessons of life.

I didn't need to go running off to anyone wailing anything, a one to one conversation with the person issuing the order was sufficient.

And the order is soon dropped when faced with the possibility of receiving a bill.

 

Who says you learn lessons from being punished, I guess you are also under the belief that the prison system works and nobody re-offends.

 

The child in this thread is being punished for something it has no control over.

You seem to think that's ok.

 

Yes I do because the punishment in this case is simply being barred from the lesson, not six of the best. If the teachers let him off then they have to start letting others off and so on. As I understand it the child was given a regulation shirt and joined the lessons later.

 

Some prisoners re offend, some don't there is no blanket rule. I certainly don't believe in US style justice.

 

I have certainly never heard of bills being involved in school punishments.

[hard2miss]

Well fine. The 800 pupils at my skool obviously lived in a parallel universe. I am yet to hear of the human rights act being used in schools to block detentions and other punishments. I would be interested to see what schools are allowed to do in your view. My teacher friends schools seem to have the same rules as the ones we went to 20 years ago, detentions, suspensions, removals from class and teachers shouting at misbehaving pupils. I expect that is oppressive in your eyes?

Detentions are ok but if they are warranted. You have to teach kids fairness and justice, as you yourself have conceded there's a deficit in moral teaching in school, so detaining some one for such a thing to me is counter productive and only creates contempt towards the school.

[hard2miss]

Yes I do because the punishment in this case is simply being barred from the lesson, not six of the best. If the teachers let him off then they have to start letting others off and so on. As I understand it the child was given a regulation shirt and joined the lessons later.

 

Some prisoners re offend, some don't there is no blanket rule. I certainly don't believe in US style justice.

 

I have certainly never heard of bills being involved in school punishments.

Some ? look at the statistics about the re-offending rate.

[Mr Prime]

Detentions are ok but if they are warranted. You have to teach kids fairness and justice, as you yourself have conceded there's a deficit in moral teaching in school, so detaining some one for such a thing to me is counter productive and only creates contempt towards the school.

 

It's hard to be definitive now because schools are all so different, they seemed to be more universal when I was there. In my school we received tickets for misbehaviour, if we got 8 we had to clean tables for a week and other similar punishments. We had fair warning in that case.

A classic detention example, my teacher brother gave a boy detention who was sleeping in class or pretending to sleep. He stayed after school and that was that. To me that is justified. Should the school have said well "if you're tired you'd better get an early night"? No, the kid had to learn that messing about in class had consequences. I think one symptom of kids not being disciplined was when teenagers used to start at my workplace and then take the pee. They were stunned when the managers came down on them like what seemed like a ton of bricks. They seemed to expect the kind of reaction their lax teachers or soft parents had given them. As a union rep I had to explain to them that the PC they were using to send personal messages on was the property of the employer and that being late was not an option.

[Mr Prime]

Some ? look at the statistics about the re-offending rate.

 

Well do we lock them up for longer and stiffer sentences? Or do we conclude that prison doesn't work and try and keep people out of prison?

[Digsy]

Yes I do because the punishment in this case is simply being barred from the lesson, not six of the best. If the teachers let him off then they have to start letting others off and so on. As I understand it the child was given a regulation shirt and joined the lessons later.

 

Some prisoners re offend, some don't there is no blanket rule. I certainly don't believe in US style justice.

 

I have certainly never heard of bills being involved in school punishments.

 

So...just because you've not heard of it doesn't mean it don't exist.

So the school found a remedy by giving him a shirt and allowing him to the join the lessons they are under obligation to provide.

Which in my opinion is a better remedy than punishing the child.

The schools obligation to a pupil is to provide x-amount of hours worth of learning whilst keeping that pupils rights intact.

 

I have given you an example of where the human rights act has been used in school, my example.

 

http://www.teachingexpertise.com/e-bulletins/legal-obligations-on-uniform-policy-2190

 

That link should give you some helpful info.

[hard2miss]

It's hard to be definitive now because schools are all so different, they seemed to be more universal when I was there. In my school we received tickets for misbehaviour, if we got 8 we had to clean tables for a week and other similar punishments. We had fair warning in that case.

A classic detention example, my teacher brother gave a boy detention who was sleeping in class or pretending to sleep. He stayed after school and that was that. To me that is justified. Should the school have said well "if you're tired you'd better get an early night"? No, the kid had to learn that messing about in class had consequences. I think one symptom of kids not being disciplined was when teenagers used to start at my workplace and then take the pee. They were stunned when the managers came down on them like what seemed like a ton of bricks. They seemed to expect the kind of reaction their lax teachers or soft parents had given them. As a union rep I had to explain to them that the PC they were using to send personal messages on was the property of the employer and that being late was not an option.

Maybe so but that's different, that's about someone showing disrespect to the teacher regarding education. Switching off in such a way is like wagging school to some degree.

How do you equate that though to kids that turn up for school, try, respect their education and then get punished for a school badge ?

[norks]

Getting back to the original post, I was annoyed about the schools monopoly of a situation.

I have sent an email to the office of fair trading and am awaiting a reply, i will be going into school tomorrow to get down in writing exactly what thay have said to me today regarding school uniforms and detentions.

 

 

In my opinion parents should have the choice as to where they buy their goods and not be forced into a situation of having to buy from one supplier at higher costs or have their child punished.

[Mr Prime]

Maybe so but that's different, that's about someone showing disrespect to the teacher regarding education. Switching off in such a way is like wagging school to some degree.

How do you equate that though to kids that turn up for school, try, respect their education and then get punished for a school badge ?

 

Well school badge translates as not wearing regulation uniform for which there can be no exceptions. Once exceptions start...

 

Had I been the teacher in question I may have handled it differently, I would do what seems to have been (eventually?) done, to give the lad the shirt and then take it up with the parent. To the parent I would have said get the shirt or take your son elsewhere, you are not special. Hitlerite?

My brother told me about a pushy middle class mum who asked one of his colleagues not to shout at her son. This man just told her he would shout at him if necessary and if she didn't like it she knew what she could do. We have the pheonomena of parents saying their daughters should not be allowed to go swimming on religious grounds. Schools have complied. What about when parents start saying they don't want their kids learning evolution or science or any subject? Parents should conform or take their kids out, no middle way.

[Digsy]

I thought I'd outline the important sections that apply to the op in the link I provided above.

 

What other legal obligations should I be aware of in this area?

 

As well as the Human Rights Act 1998, schools need to be aware of their legal obligations under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the Race Relations Act 1976, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, the Equality Act 2006 and the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007.

 

The DCSF has said that they will take action against schools that have a uniform policy which is needlessly and prohibitively expensive. Expensive uniform policies may fall foul of the Code of Practice on School Admissions which places a statutory duty on governing bodies to ensure that their policies and practices do not disadvantage any children. Furthermore the Office for Fair Trading has already written to schools warning them that exclusive contracts with suppliers may contravene the Competition Act 1998 on the grounds that such exclusive agreements may restrict competition between retailers to supply uniform.

 

So what can a school do if a pupil contravenes its uniform policy?

 

It is important to remember that even when a school has agreed and implemented its uniform policy it must still carefully consider any request that is made to vary the policy to meet the needs of an individual pupil. This is not only to accommodate their religious belief but also any temporary or permanent medical conditions, in order to avoid breaches of disability discrimination legislation.

 

However, with that caveat, a headteacher or person authorised by the headteacher has the right to send a pupil briefly home to put on the correct uniform or otherwise adjust their appearance in line with the school's uniform policy. The school must first inform the pupil's parents and consider factors such as the pupil's age, vulnerability, availability of the parent and how easily the breach can be remedied. When this is done it will constitute an authorised absence. It is very important that the pupil is not sent home indefinitely or for longer than necessary to remedy the uniform offence, otherwise this could amount to an unofficial exclusion, which is unlawful.

 

Schools also have the right to exclude a pupil for uniform offences, even where they do not otherwise display poor behaviour, but only where the breaches of the school's uniform policy are persistent and defiant. However, it is important that schools are considerate and reasonable and look discreetly at the particular circumstances of individual cases, taking into account the possibility that the uniform has been lost, stolen or damaged or that the pupil's parents are in financial difficulties.

 

A school has no obligation to give detentions for breach of dress code.

And are wrong for doing so.