Disproving the Existence of God

[Grahame]

Oxymoron alert !

 

Surely you don't want somebody to begin listing the endless 'evil' deeds committed and still being committed in the name of God? He was invoked in pretty much every recent act of 'evil' that I can think of by people who are certainly not atheists.

 

Godless people unfortunately take the name of the Lord in vain.

 

Vain: delusive; deceitful. [1913 Webster]

 

 

[Karis]

This people is why people I am the way I am with my posts because of all the abuse I get and none of you like it do you.

 

No, it's your choice to behave the way you do. Yet you seem determined to blame others. If you could realise the message, I think you'd be a lot happier.

 

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes atheism. :- Grahame

 

Good people can do evil things even believing in God... It's far more likely that it boils down to people being people and that there is no God.

 

As YOU yourself have proven, you'd rather blame someone else than accept responsibility for your actions (see above), and, if you can do that, it undoubtedly follows across all religions.

 

You're the walking poster boy for proof of a secular universe.

[Grahame]

No, it's your choice to behave the way you do. Yet you seem determined to blame others. If you could realise the message, I think you'd be a lot happier.

 

Good people can do evil things even believing in God... It's far more likely that it boils down to people being people and that there is no God.

 

As YOU yourself have proven, you'd rather blame someone else than accept responsibility for your actions (see above), and, if you can do that, it undoubtedly follows across all religions.

 

You're the walking poster boy for proof of a secular universe.

 

Believing in God does not mean you follow the teaching of Jesus and anyone who is guilty of atrocities is plainly not following his teaching.

 

Thank you.

[Karis]

Believing in God does not mean you follow the teaching of Jesus and anyone who is guilty of atrocities is plainly not following his teaching.

 

Thank you.

 

Of course not! Tell that to the Pope who actually IS the poster boy for Christianity, allowing all that abuse to go on.

 

Or any of the other thousands who do exactly the same...

 

There's absolutely NO love coming from you, Graham.

 

So, by your own standards, whose teachings are you following?

 

None of this is meant to be an attack. I've bent over backwards to help you chill out online and not take it all so personally, but really, even when the evidence is overwhelming, are you going to admit your posts do not follow the teachings of Jesus?

[six45ive]

Anyway to the OP - you can't disprove the existance god any more than you can prove it. You can build a philosophical argument for one side or the other - however this will always be built on premises and interpritations of data defined by your beliefs. You may be able to disprove chunks of, say, the bible but that is rather different. By definition you can't have a scientific proof of the existance or non existance of god.

 

The evidence against there being a theistic god is a whole lot more than just a philosophical argument. When you look at all the evidence from science, including neurological science, as well as history, politics and social studies looking at human nature then the evidence against there being a god is totally overwhelming.

As for the bible then this also puts a nail in the coffin of there being a god for if you claim to be a true xtian then you have to believe that the bible is the unerring word of god, which it clearly isn't, and there is no way you can do that and be a rational person.

As for claiming that we will never have scientific proof for or against god you don't know that any more than I do. Have you got a crystal ball or something? We have no idea what advances science will make in the next 1000 years.

Here's a caller saying the same as you (mainly in video 2). He gets destroyed by Matt.

[Grahame]

Of course not! Tell that to the Pope who actually IS the poster boy for Christianity, allowing all that abuse to go on.

 

Or any of the other thousands who do exactly the same...

 

There's absolutely NO love coming from you, Graham.

 

So, by your own standards, whose teachings are you following?

 

None of this is meant to be an attack. I've bent over backwards to help you chill out online and not take it all so personally, but really, even when the evidence is overwhelming, are you going to admit your posts do not follow the teachings of Jesus?

 

I follow the teaching of Jesus. Please don't tar me and others like me with the actions of those who are plainly in disobedience of the commandments.

 

 

[Smithster]

Believing in God does not mean you follow the teaching of Jesus and anyone who is guilty of atrocities is plainly not following his teaching.

 

Thank you.

 

I think we're pretty much agreed, as it has been discussed over and over on here, that most of Jesus' teachings such as 'love thy neighbour' and other such messages were good and pure. I don't think I have ever seen a single post disputing that on this forum. But that is not what is in question here. what we are discussing is the existence of god which, in my opinion anyway, is a completely separate issue.

 

Although I have never fully studied the bible, I am aware of the message of peace and love that Jesus spread, and it cannot be denied that is is a good and worthy message, and if everyone followed it then yes, I agree the world would be a better place. In that sense you are correct Grahame. But then, so is the message of Jainism which teaches love respect for all living things, and to follow this path requires no blind faith in a non-existent deity. One of the primary reasons you get so much flak on here is your insistence that only true Christians are capable of living in a peaceful, honest manner, respectful of all around them. You are wrong.

 

The world does not 'need' Christianity as you put it Grahame. The world needs people to show more love and respect to each other and to their environment, and some of Jesus' teachings go some way towards this. The problem most people have with the rest of the message is the insistence in putting your faith in something which, as the opening post on this thread demonstrates, cannot exist in the way that it is described.

[Karis]

I follow the teaching of Jesus. Please don't tar me and others like me with the actions of those who are plainly in disobedience of the commandments.

 

So, that's your answer? An indignant statement devoid of humility or the ability to recognize mistakes.

 

"Honour thy neighbour" - you're not generally being a role model for love and tolerance... In fact you plainly refuse to acknowledge your failings, instead opting to blame others (even me).

 

Like so many others, I said I wouldn't post any more on these Does God Exist threads as they seem to cause pain and go around in circles, which I absolutely don't want. But I'll say one final time: you are in control of your life and you have a choice what to say and when. You can grow or stagnate; it's your choice

 

You can live harmoniously on SF.

 

We all need to look at our actions from time to time and no one is beyond reproach.

[[Matt]]

The worst genocides of the 20th Century

 

Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000

Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 23,000,000 (the purges plus Ukraine's famine)

Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)

Leopold II of Belgium (Congo, 1886-1908)

Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians in WWII)

Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915-20) 1,200,000 Armenians (1915) + 350,000 Greek Pontians and 480,000 Anatolian Greeks (1916-22) + 500,000 Assyrians (1915-20)

Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000

Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)

Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000

Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000

Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000

Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000

Suharto (East Timor, West Papua, Communists, 1966-98) 800,000

Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) 600,000

Tito (Yugoslavia, 1945-1987) 570,000

Fumimaro Konoe (Japan, 1937-39) 500,000? (Chinese civilians)

Jonas Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) 400,000

Mullah Omar - Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000

Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000

Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1970-71) 300,000 (Bangladesh)

Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Libya, 1934-45; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000

Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire, 1965-97) ?

Charles Taylor (Liberia, 1989-1996) 220,000

Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone, 1991-2000) 200,000

Michel Micombero (Burundi, 1972) 150,000

Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia, 1992-99) 100,000

Hassan Turabi (Sudan, 1989-1999) 100,000

Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Centrafrica, 1966-79) ?

Richard Nixon (Vietnam, 1969-1974) 70,000 (Vietnamese and Cambodian civilians)

Efrain Rios Montt (Guatemala, 1982-83) 70,000

Papa Doc Duvalier (Haiti, 1957-71) 60,000

Hissene Habre (Chad, 1982-1990) 40,000

Chiang Kai-shek (Taiwan, 1947) 30,000 (popular uprising)

Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 (dissidents executed)

Francisco Franco (Spain) 30,000 (dissidents executed after the civil war)

Fidel Castro (Cuba, 1959-1999) 30,000

Lyndon Johnson (Vietnam, 1963-1968) 30,000

Hafez Al-Assad (Syria, 1980-2000) 25,000

Khomeini (Iran, 1979-89) 20,000

Robert Mugabe (Zimbabwe, 1982-87, Ndebele minority) 20,000

Rafael Videla (Argentina, 1976-83) 13,000

Guy Mollet (France, 1956-1957) 10,000 (war in Algeria)

Harold McMillans (Britain, 1952-56, Kenya's Mau-Mau rebellion) 10,000

Paul Koroma (Sierra Leone, 1997) 6,000

Osama Bin Laden (worldwide, 1993-2001) 3,500

Augusto Pinochet (Chile, 1973) 3,000

Al Zarqawi (Iraq, 2004-06) 2,000

 

Not forgetting the Americans who committed genocide by bombing the rice fields in North Vietnam, knowing that they would only kill women and children.

 

Keep in mind that murder is condemned and forbidden in Christianity and elsewhere of course but when questioned I imagine all these would tell you what good people they are.

 

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

More than half of those were religious or at least constructed their societies along the lines of religious like ideals by representing their leaders within a cult of personality that viewed them as godlike. Such societies found themselves lacking any form of reason or self criticism. We've been over this before.... People are motivated by what they DO believe and not what they dont.... Atheism is a LACK of belief and cannot be held accountable for people's actions. Its when core beliefs are held to be infallible that you can make people do anything to maintains those beliefs.

[Grahame]

I think we're pretty much agreed, as it has been discussed over and over on here, that most of Jesus' teachings such as 'love thy neighbour' and other such messages were good and pure. I don't think I have ever seen a single post disputing that on this forum. But that is not what is in question here. what we are discussing is the existence of god which, in my opinion anyway, is a completely separate issue.

 

Although I have never fully studied the bible, I am aware of the message of peace and love that Jesus spread, and it cannot be denied that is is a good and worthy message, and if everyone followed it then yes, I agree the world would be a better place. In that sense you are correct Grahame. But then, so is the message of Jainism which teaches love respect for all living things, and to follow this path requires no blind faith in a non-existent deity. One of the primary reasons you get so much flak on here is your insistence that only true Christians are capable of living in a peaceful, honest manner, respectful of all around them. You are wrong.

 

The world does not 'need' Christianity as you put it Grahame. The world needs people to show more love and respect to each other and to their environment, and some of Jesus' teachings go some way towards this. The problem most people have with the rest of the message is the insistence in putting your faith in something which, as the opening post on this thread demonstrates, cannot exist in the way that it is described.

 

Thank you for the kind things you said Smithster.

 

There are a couple of things, and as you admit people are prepared to follow the teaching of other men including Muhammed, Anton LaVey and others as you rightly say, so why can't people follow the teaching of Jesus whether you believe in God or not?

 

The other thing about Christianity and Islam is the message of eternal life which I don't talk about because I shall never know in this life and whatever people think, I do try to keep my feet on the ground.

 

So to summarise my feelings on the subject, I feel that Christianity as a model for everyday living has much to offer with perhaps a 'bonus ball' at the end.