donkey Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I don't think we were created with evil in us and I don't believe babies are born evil. If you see or hear a baby telling lies, stealing, committing adultery or any other number of things then let me know. The problem comes when we see something we want (for example) and we have the choice to either take it or walk away. This is where self comes in and you are in control of self. Self says I want that for myself and self takes it. It is down to you and you are in control of yourself so don't go blaming God for your actions. Some women's groups are fond of saying "It's my body - its my choice" and dead right it is. Only you can take responsibility for your actions and it is you (not you personally) who will have to answer in court for what you did. The trouble in the world is down to 'self'. It doesn't make sense. when does this 'self' come in? where does it come from, if not from God? Going back to the original point where you said evil comes from within us - if you believe God created us, you must either believe he created every parts of us, or that some parts of us come from somewhere else (which you refute) but it can't be both. As for 'blaming God', don't worry, i won't be blaming an entity which I don't believe exists for anything, I'm merely trying to point out to you the glaring contradiction and logical impossibilty in your assertions that. A: God created us. B: Our propensity to do 'evil' comes from within C: God did not create our propensity to do 'evil' (in which case it must have come from another source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwhine Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I know myself and I know I have wrong thoughts and I won't deny that on occasions I have succumbed to those wrong thoughts. In Bible language that makes me a sinner and I admit it, but I think I am the only one on here who does. You're not the only one, Grahame. I, too, think that you are a sinner, and I admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithster Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I don't think we were created with evil in us and I don't believe babies are born evil. Grahame, can you please explain how you reconcile this statement with your earlier assertion that mankind is 'inherently evil'? Surely the two positions are completely contradictory, are they not? If we are not created with evil in us, and are not born evil, then it surely follows that people who commit evil acts are essentially good people who fall victim to their own environment/upbringing etc... leaving us with the inescapable conclusion that mankind is most definitely not inherently evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 It doesn't make sense. when does this 'self' come in? where does it come from, if not from God? Going back to the original point where you said evil comes from within us - if you believe God created us, you must either believe he created every parts of us, or that some parts of us come from somewhere else (which you refute) but it can't be both. As for 'blaming God', don't worry, i won't be blaming an entity which I don't believe exists for anything, I'm merely trying to point out to you the glaring contradiction and logical impossibilty in your assertions that. A: God created us. B: Our propensity to do 'evil' comes from within C: God did not create our propensity to do 'evil' (in which case it must have come from another source. I do believe we are a creation of God and that he gave us a mind with which to make decisions and in answer to point © the decisions are yours and yours alone. (Unless you want to blame God for your decisions. ) Personally I blame Satan, but seeing as you don't believe in any deity you only have yourself to blame for your own actions, i.e. yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Grahame, can you please explain how you reconcile this statement with your earlier assertion that mankind is 'inherently evil'? Surely the two positions are completely contradictory, are they not? If we are not created with evil in us, and are not born evil, then it surely follows that people who commit evil acts are essentially good people who fall victim to their own environment/upbringing etc... leaving us with the inescapable conclusion that mankind is most definitely not inherently evil. You are blaming the environment now for what the Ripper did! According to that argument it should be his parents or his friends in the dock. I disagree with you and so does the law. We are all accountable for our own actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkey Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Personally I blame Satan, but seeing as you don't believe in any deity you only have yourself to blame for your own actions, i.e. yourself. What actions are those grahame? Are you accusing me of something? That's a bit of an about face, because now you are saying evil comes from satan, whereas before you said it came from within. Forgive me if I am not convinced to see the light by the sheer inconsistency of your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairyloon Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Clearly if you choose to define "God" as something that cannot possibly exist, then it should be easy to show that it does not. You're obviously new to this thread and probably haven't read most of it but we're talking mainly about a theistic god. You are right, I haven't. But theistic is not the same as omnipotent. The point still applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 What an unusual dictionary you have. Doesn't it have the other, original, definition, or have you omitted it for convenience? Most dictionaries I've seen provide two definitions: 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god. 2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. I find it curious that most theists usually always refer to 1. to describe us, whereas every atheist I know describe themselves with reference to 2. Even more curious is that if I look in my grandfather's dictionary there is just one definition which is similar to 2. Looking at the online 1828 definition in Websters gives the following: A'THEISM, n. The disbelief of the existence of a God, or Supreme intelligent Being. http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,atheism Again more similar to the definition to the one in my grandad's dictionary, and the one actually used by most atheists to describe their position. Notice the presentation there as well ... a'theism ... cool. Incidentally the word "agnostic" fails to make an appearance in either my grandad's dictionary or the 1828 online edition. I have heard people argue that agnosticism is the only intellectually honest position to take with regard to gods. According to this viewpoint, theism and atheism are arrogant affirmations of being certain about something that is intrinsically unknowable. This is bunkum, because belief is a binary position, you either believe in something or you don't. The old dictionaries had it right. My dictionary does indeed have only the quote I posted earlier- atheism is 'a belief that there is no God' Clearly, there are currently two definitions of atheism doing the rounds- your dictionary confirms this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairyloon Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 then it should be easy to show that it does not.Should it? Then it should be easy to prove this does not exist? Or that there isn't a planet inhabited by intelligent, 6 eyed fruits? The argument goes: God is defined as an ominpotent being. It is impossible for an omnipotent being to exist. Therefore God cannot exist. Q.E.D. The logical argument is flawless. A god defined thus does not exist. However, I do not agree with the definition. God, if he exists, is not omnipotent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karis Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I do believe we are a creation of God and that he gave us a mind with which to make decisions and in answer to point © the decisions are yours and yours alone. (Unless you want to blame God for your decisions. ) Personally I blame Satan, but seeing as you don't believe in any deity you only have yourself to blame for your own actions, i.e. yourself. You did a 180 on the subject of self and sin... That said, I find it incredible that you/ anyone would believe there was one creature in existence responsible for YOUR "sin". That, my friend, is called your ID (according to Freud) and has absolutely no supernatural element whatsoever. The dark thoughts we have that lurk at the back of our minds have nothing at all to do with a man in a red suit with a pitchfork! Understanding the make up of our psyche, and accepting our IDs hold over us, does make life a whole lot happier... Denying it, and giving it supernatural names, merely clouds the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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