Disproving the Existence of God

[plekhanov]

Yes, but my point is that no religion actually believes in an all powerful God. Both Free Will and the Crucifixion are fundamental principles acknowledging a limitation on God's powers. Your argument is a strawman, an argument against a philosophical conception of God that doesn't exist outside in the real world or beliefs of religious people.

What a ludicrous claim I distinctly recall as a child being required to sing the following hymn which I understand is still popular across many varieties of Xainity:

 

"My God is so big,

So strong and so mighty,

There's nothing my God cannot do."

 

The god I was instructed to believe in and worship was most definitely an all powerful one. six45ive's argument is anything but a strawman.

[Wildcat]

What a ludicrous claim I distinctly recall as a child being required to sing the following hymn which I understand is still popular across many varieties of Xainity:

 

"My God is so big,

So strong and so mighty,

There's nothing my God cannot do."

 

The god I was instructed to believe in and worship was most definitely an all powerful one. six45ive's argument is anything but a strawman.

 

I don't know the song, but songs are precisely where you expect exaggerations. Why would a religious song be any different?

 

Edit: Is that a real genuine hymn? I can't even read those words without putting on a silly whiny childish voice... It is the sort of thing you expect a 5yr old to say.

 

Edit2: yes looked it up it is a genuine song for Sunday school.... in other words for children....

 

A literal interpretation of Children's songs isn't very strong theological evidence about the nature of religious belief.

[Hairyloon]

None of which, as I said, amount to any more than brown-nosing.

Which is what you'd expect from people who are fearful of an omnipotent being.

Like Caesar? Or your boss come to that.

[Hairyloon]

My argument is a strawman erected by who exactly?

The mighty Dawkins I believe.

[six45ive]

That is a bad start to a post, although perhaps intended to be a joke?

 

Not at all. After all I know what you look like and hairy loon sums it up pretty well.

 

Is quoting me and in response denying my presence on the thread, some sort of metaphor for the way you conceptualise yourself?

 

Only on a Sunday in the prescence of a full moon.

 

The Freewill argument? Yes, it disproves Omnipotence... the point it misses is that it is not God that falls it is the attribution of Omnipotence.

 

More accurately it's the idea of an omnipotent god that falls. As I already mentioned to your alter ego if you wish to discuss whether you can have a god that is not omnipotent then start another thread.

 

Epicurus.

 

Really.....you were there were you? I mean I said I know what you look like but I wouldn't say you were that old!

But what you're really saying is that these organisations worship a strawman then do you?

http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Attributes-of-God-messianic.htm

http://www.bibletruthforum.com/cords/art108.htm

http://bible.org/seriespage/god-able

 

I could provide many more but I think you get the point wildloon.....or should that be hairycat?

Anyway, don't you think your time might be better spent going onto various xtian websites to let them know they worship a strawman?

[plekhanov]

I don't know the song, but songs are precisely where you expect exaggerations. Why would a religious song be any different?

So oh wise one please do tell me the claimed characteristics of the deity I spent a not insubstantial portion of my childhood being required to learn about?

 

I suppose all the sermons, sunday school lessons, bible readings:

 

Jeremiah 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

 

32:27 -28 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

 

Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and he shall take it:

 

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

Luke 18:27 And he [Jesus] said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

 

Were all "exaggerations" as well were they? What I'd like to know is exaggerations of what?

 

All those times I was told that God could do anything by the preachers, Sunday School teachers, my family... what position were they secretly holding that for some mystifying reason they hid from me?

[Wildcat]

Not at all. After all I know what you look like and hairy loon sums it up pretty well.

 

Ad hominems are helpful to your argument in what way?

 

Only on a Sunday in the prescence of a full moon.

 

I guess you don't want to explain your initial sentence then?

 

More accurately it's the idea of an omnipotent god that falls. As I already mentioned to your alter ego if you wish to discuss whether you can have a god that is not omnipotent then start another thread.

 

Who are you talking about?

 

Incidentally, it is Dawkins in the original post that specifically references Judeo-Christianity with his version of the Adam and Eve story.

 

Really.....you were there were you? I mean I said I know what you look like but I wouldn't say you were that old!

But what you're really saying is that these organisations worship a strawman then do you?

 

If you read the original post of the thread through you would know the answer to your question was there. The thread is about the Epicurean Paradox is it not?

 

http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Attributes-of-God-messianic.htm

http://www.bibletruthforum.com/cords/art108.htm

http://bible.org/seriespage/god-able

 

And the first link makes a claim and then qualifies it with quotations from the bible about what God cannot do..... lie for example. God clearly isn't conceived of as Omnipotent.

 

I could provide many more but I think you get the point wildloon.....or should that be hairycat?

 

Anyway, don't you think your time might be better spent going onto various xtian websites to let them know they worship a strawman?

 

I am sure I would get more sense out of anyone articulate enough to argue a point without acting like a five year old.

[plekhanov]

Edit: Is that a real genuine hymn? I can't even read those words without putting on a silly whiny childish voice... It is the sort of thing you expect a 5yr old to say.

 

Edit2: yes looked it up it is a genuine song for Sunday school.... in other words for children....

 

A literal interpretation of Children's songs isn't very strong theological evidence about the nature of religious belief.

Oh this is just too much, what could be better evidence about what religions believe than what they teach children they are trying to indoctrinate into that belief?

 

Like most people the faith which every effort was made to instil me as a child wasn't the subtle ever shifting one of academic theologians. It was a really rather simple faith one concerning an all powerful god who called the universe into existence a little over 6000 years ago.

 

When the Sunday School teachers had us colour in signs quoting Matthew 19:26 (With God all things are possible) they meant us to understand that just as literally as when we coloured in John 4:8 (God is Love). When they told us god knew everything including what we thought and would know if we sinned in our hearts they literally meant and believed that. It is just astonishingly arrogant of you declare that you know what all religious people really believe, even when they themselves contradict you.

[Wildcat]

So oh wise one please do tell me the claimed characteristics of the deity I spent a not insubstantial portion of my childhood being required to learn about?

 

I suppose all the sermons, sunday school lessons, bible readings:

 

Jeremiah 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

 

32:27 -28 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

 

Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and he shall take it:

 

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

Luke 18:27 And he [Jesus] said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

 

Were all "exaggerations" as well were they? What I'd like to know is exaggerations of what?

 

All those times I was told that God could do anything by the preachers, Sunday School teachers, my family... what position were they secretly holding that for some mystifying reason they hid from me?

 

Religion fundamentally is about something indescribable directly with words, requiring metaphors to attempt an explanation. Understanding the nature of God is ultimately a mystic experience.

[Wildcat]

Oh this is just too much, what could be better evidence about what religions believe than what they teach children they are trying to indoctrinate into that belief?

 

Like most people the faith which every effort was made to instil me as a child wasn't the subtle ever shifting one of academic theologians. It was a really rather simple faith one concerning an all powerful god who called the universe into existence a little over 6000 years ago.

 

When the Sunday School teachers had us colour in signs quoting Matthew 19:26 (With God all things are possible) they meant us to understand that just as literally as when we coloured in John 4:8 (God is Love). When they told us god knew everything including what we thought and would know if we sinned in our hearts they literally meant and believed that. It is just astonishingly arrogant of you declare that you know what all religious people really believe, even when they themselves contradict you.

 

I don't seek to speak for religious people.

 

But look back at the history of religion. The prophets, the ascetism, the days Jesus spent delirious in the wilderness, the nature of the contradictions and the way language is used in religious texts, these aren't attempts to describe literal truths they are mystical notions. There is more to religion than just structural dogma.