Disproving the Existence of God

[flamingjimmy]

Wildcat, I'm seeing a bit of a contradiction.

 

On the one hand, you seem to be arguing from some 'religion is mysticism and it's totally personal whatever you get out of it is right for you' kind of line, and then on the other hand you're telling Grahame that he's got his own religion wrong?!? Care to comment on that?

[onewheeldave]

Wildcat, I'm seeing a bit of a contradiction.

 

On the one hand, you seem to be arguing from some 'religion is mysticism and it's totally personal whatever you get out of it is right for you' kind of line, and then on the other hand you're telling Grahame that he's got his own religion wrong?!? Care to comment on that?

 

The point is that there's many forms of religion, two of which I've mentioned being the mystical form and the 'state religion' form.

 

(plus the entire range between those two extremes).

 

I'm not going to claim to know what Grahame's form is, but it's clearly not in the mystical camp, so, I don't necessarily see a contradiction there.

[Hairyloon]

So if the bus represents god, then god is disproved.

Ok, so maybe it is not god, but merely a "great sky pixie" with some fancy magical powers.

Since you Dawks use the terms "god" and "great sky pixie" interchangeably, you cannot claim that this is a divergence from the purpose of the thread.

However, nobody has claimed that the "great sky pixie" is omnipotent.

 

In science, when a theory is shown to be flawed, it is rare that the entire theory is scrapped. Usually it is modified and tested again.

Why then do you require a different standard for religion?

 

Granted, most religions are very poor at changing, but that is because they are controlled by people with power, and people don't like change, especially if such change risks their losing power.

[Grahame]

2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

 

Jeremiah 4:10 Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. Try again ;-)

 

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 is about you and people like you who refuse the truth and prefer to believe the Antichrist, such is the mind-set of the deluded which I see on this thread and which has been commented on by another poster who said in effect that peoples minds were firmly made up and there is no changing them.

 

So that there is no mistaking the choice people make they are tested and if they believe the lie (the delusion) then those who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness will be condemned for they have admitted their affiliation to Satan and condemned themselves already.

 

*******************************

 

 

Jeremiah is one of the major prophets who speaks of the last days similar to the Apostle Paul in the Thessalonian passage. The Israelites have turned to idol worship, they have been unfaithful to God and they are committing adultery which as you know was a serious offence among the Jews but even the leaders turned a blind eye to it. Such was the state of the nation in Jeremiah’s day, and unfortunately it is the same in the world today as it was in Israel then.

 

So the Israelites make different excuses and begin contradicting themselves claiming firstly that they have not sinned and then realising the falsity of this claim go so far as to say their wood and stone idols were their father and they gave them birth.

 

Read it yourself in Jeremiah 2:26-27. Naturally enough such people, the same as people on the forum, from their position of wickedness as defined in the Bible, blame God for the state the world is in and the things that happen.

 

 

[Wildcat]

What does that mean?

 

What I was meaning was that the requirement in both Protestantism, Catholicism Eastern Orthodox etc. for Faith is a part of a mystical tradition. It is an assertion that God is only knowable through metaphysical introspection not through rationalism. Mysticism is present in all forms of Christianity.

 

Indeed I think to an extent it is present in all Christians and religious believers, in a sense despite of what they say, but in another sense because of what they.

 

You often see religious people use all manner of excuses to justify their religion in the face of atheist criticisms. When they are shown to be contradictory it makes no difference they move on to another argument. What is plain is none of those arguments are in fact reasons for their belief. The reasons for their beliefs are personal, revealed and the justifications given just icing or excuses and defences. And the strength and inventiveness of their defences a testament to the strength of their faith. Their belief is not rational... it is something else.... it is metaphysical... it is religious.... it is mysticism.

 

Note none of that is meant denigratingly. Concepts like "universal love" or ethical values are metaphysical concepts... undefinable and yet commonly understood.

[Wildcat]

Wildcat, I'm seeing a bit of a contradiction.

 

On the one hand, you seem to be arguing from some 'religion is mysticism and it's totally personal whatever you get out of it is right for you' kind of line, and then on the other hand you're telling Grahame that he's got his own religion wrong?!? Care to comment on that?

 

See above. I think that might make it clearer.

[onewheeldave]

What I was meaning was that the requirement in both Protestantism, Catholicism Eastern Orthodox etc. for Faith is a part of a mystical tradition. It is an assertion that God is only knowable through metaphysical introspection not through rationalism. Mysticism is present in all forms of Christianity.

 

Indeed I think to an extent it is present in all Christians and religious believers, in a sense despite of what they say, but in another sense because of what they.

 

You often see religious people use all manner of excuses to justify their religion in the face of atheist criticisms. When they are shown to be contradictory it makes no difference they move on to another argument. What is plain is none of those arguments are in fact reasons for their belief. The reasons for their beliefs are personal, revealed and the justifications given just icing or excuses and defences. And the strength and inventiveness of their defences a testament to the strength of their faith. Their belief is not rational... it is something else.... it is metaphysical... it is religious.... it is mysticism.

 

Note none of that is meant denigratingly. Concepts like "universal love" or ethical values are metaphysical concepts... undefinable and yet commonly understood.

 

Good explanation. I have to make clear though, that me and you are seeing the mystical roots of religion in 2 different ways in relation to the current issue.

 

I was making reference to actual mystical practice,via which the practitioner aspires to personal experince of God (in christianity etc) or 'ultimate reality' (in Zen or atheist mystical traditions).

 

While I appreciate your point that mystical experience can be seen as the root of all faiths, i have to maintain that it's not in the active sense I refer to above i.e. few of the state religions encourage their flock to engage in personal mystical practice and, historically, some have very much discouraged it. The view is that knowledge of God is via the church organisation, not direct personal experience.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you there, simply clarifying my own position.

[Karis]

Good luck Karis and keep in touch, open mind and all that.

 

It has been a pleasure!

[flamingjimmy]

You often see religious people use all manner of excuses to justify their religion in the face of atheist criticisms. When they are shown to be contradictory it makes no difference they move on to another argument. What is plain is none of those arguments are in fact reasons for their belief. The reasons for their beliefs are personal, revealed and the justifications given just icing or excuses and defences. And the strength and inventiveness of their defences a testament to the strength of their faith. Their belief is not rational... it is something else.... it is metaphysical... it is religious.... it is mysticism.

I was with you right up until the last part. Their belief is in something metaphysical, it isn't actually metaphysical. Also, I know you didn't actually say it but the wording of your post contains the implication that having a strong faith in something that can't be swayed by evidence or logic because of some kind of 'gut feeling' is a good thing. Which is a sentiment that I absolutely disagree with, that is a bad quality.

 

Note none of that is meant denigratingly. Concepts like "universal love" or ethical values are metaphysical concepts... undefinable and yet commonly understood.

or, possibly, they are pretentious nonsense.

[Wildcat]

I was with you right up until the last part. Their belief is in something metaphysical, it isn't actually metaphysical. Also, I know you didn't actually say it but the wording of your post contains the implication that having a strong faith in something that can't be swayed by evidence or logic because of some kind of 'gut feeling' is a good thing. Which is a sentiment that I absolutely disagree with, that is a bad quality.

 

or, possibly, they are pretentious nonsense.

 

You can enjoy your photographs, I will enjoy the gut response I get when I look at art.