The Thick End Of The Wedge

[Nagel]

But in no way does what you posted give any causality between coming from a poor family and being unintelligent, which was the claim (Poorer families breed stupider people) - not that BEING poor is because of low intelligence, which is a different thing.

 

The statistical tendency for IQ is for offspring to have an IQ that is closer to the median of 100 than their parents. So on average two parents of IQ 120 will have offspring of slightly lower IQ and two parents of IQ 80 will have offspring of slightly higher IQ (ie. closer to 100 in both cases).

[Suffragette1]

Really? How many students does the average University have? How many school leavers with 'A' levels are there each year from schools which charge £12k pa fees? If - as you suggest - university places would be limited solely to those children who attended fee-paying schools, how many universities would you need? Would 3 be enough?

 

I've heard the argument that people from poorer families are more reluctant to get into debt, but those arguments are seldom backed up with statistics. Indeed, the level of personal debt amongst people who aren't really able to afford it is alarmingly high. Is it only rich people who max out their credit cards? - Total UK personal debt at the end of August 2010 stood at £1,457bn. There are either a few thousand very rich people with massive levels of personal debt (about 6000 rich people who owe a quarter of a billion each?) or ordinary people - those from less affluent backgrounds - are more than willing to get themselves into debt.

 

It may be that some people are unwilling to go into debt to fund a course of education because they would rather go into debt to buy a lot of other 'I-want-it-and-I want-it- right-now' things. That's their choice.

 

If universities set charges which are too high, people will go elsewhere.

 

As for certain universities being 'top' universities - it depends on what you want to read. Choosing the best university for the course you want to do won't always point a student to those so-called 'top universities'.

 

It would be wonderful if the country could return to the grant system it used to have, but somehow I doubt that's ever going to happen.

 

How does the cost of university courses in the UK compare with that in (a) the rest of Europe and (b) the rest of the world? (Serious question; I don't know.)

 

That's not quite what I was saying. What I was saying was that for the wealthy whose children are schooled privately, then getting into one of the top university's will just be a 3+ year extension of paying the school fees. It is well known that the top universities recruit predominantly from the independent sector, particularly Oxbridge, this will perpetuate that.

 

I don't know what the average size of a UK university is.

 

As for choosing the best course in your chosen field of study not necessarily being in one of the top universities, I agree. However, this could also potentially mean that there will be variations in tuition fees in some universities on this basis, which again could be discriminatory.

 

Many people have personal debts, yes - however, I still maintain that someone from an affluent background will not baulk as much at the prospect of saddling oneself with £10s of thousands worth of debt as someone from an impoverished background. It's all relative and to most ordinary people, mortgages aside, £50k + as a personal debt is a substantial one. It also has a knock on effect on the rest of the economy if graduates have very little spending power or disposable income because they're servicing such huge debts.

 

I know lots of people who came from humble backgrounds who were able to avail themselves of the LEA funded fee and grant system, none of whom would have taken up the opportunity of Higher Education under the present system.

[Campanula]

I know lots of people who came from humble backgrounds who were able to avail themselves of the LEA funded fee and grant system, none of whom would have taken up the opportunity of Higher Education under the present system.

 

I am poor and have spent years faffing around at university with the help of my LEA and loans. I have two nice certificates and some photos to prove it. I honestly think I would have been better off just sticking to my rather good job and working my way up rather than getting silly ideas above my station! Same goes for a lot of graduates out there - too many people are going to University and it devalues the worth of having a degree.

[Suffragette1]

I am poor and have spent years faffing around at university with the help of my LEA and loans. I have two nice certificates and some photos to prove it. I honestly think I would have been better off just sticking to my rather good job and working my way up rather than getting silly ideas above my station! Same goes for a lot of graduates out there - too many people are going to University and it devalues the worth of having a degree.

 

That's the problem with mass higher education, it was inevitably going to devalue the worth of a degree. This has also enabled employers to raise the bar for jobs which previously would not have required a degree as a pre-requisite. On the other hand, many employers are also now setting aptitude tests as part of the recruitment process.

 

A lot also depends on your chosen profession as to how far you can progress without a degree.

[Campanula]

A friend of mine who dropped out of a Journalism degree in year one went on to become a really successful freelance journalist. I'm so proud of her for what she has built up through her own inititive and hard work. People obsess over the class aspect which I don't think applies much any more these days except for one or two disciplines such as Law and Vetinary Science which are closed to all but those who have vast resources to get them through.

[Cynic]

If you take the country as a whole then the more people going to University the better. Yes some people won't make the most of the opportunity but on the whole it must lead to a more educated nation. In the long term that has got to be an advantage to the country. If in the short term the country can't afford it then unfortunately making it more expensive to go to Uni may be unavoidable.

[Rupert_Baehr]

The government seem to think that '5 GCSEs including English and Mathematics at Grade C or above' is the minimum educational qualification necessary to enable an individual to get a reasonable job.

 

Given that less than 60% of children leave school having met that standard, the adage: "Don't try to run before you've learned to walk" seems apposite.

[dell12]

The government seem to think that '5 GCSEs including English and Mathematics at Grade C or above' is the minimum educational qualification necessary to enable an individual to get a reasonable job.

 

Given that less than 60% of children leave school having met that standard, the adage: "Don't try to run before you've learned to walk" seems apposite.

 

I always find it strange that some newspapers proclaim on the day of exam results that they're getting easier and easier, and that pretty much everyone walks away with an A* (even very young children) when the reality is very different.

 

That said of those who do get 5 GCSEs at A*-C, a very hight proportion of them must go on to do A Levels and subsequently a degree.

[Nagel]

So nothing to do with income then. Or indeed the original claim that "poor people breed stupid kids". Simply that there is a trend toward the average.

 

I'm going to have to go and beat my head against a wall soon.

 

There's a correlation between income and intelligence.

 

IQ is passed on from generation to generation (although there is a tendency towards the median).

 

Therefore on average children from poorer families will be less intelligent than children from richer families.