Labour still want to tax and spend the country into bankruptcy

[dell12]

So which socialist state would you put forward as the shining beacon that we should aspire to become?

 

Frankly I don't think there is one. China and Russia aren't what you could call socialist any more.

 

That said there are bodies (such as the NHS) which dispense drugs and care according to need, rather than ability to pay which you could argue are built upon socialist principles. Then there is the Kibbutz (Israeli communities in which people work together and in return their needs are met. They are housed, children looked after and fed.

[JFKvsNixon]

My point as regards China is that the Chinese government are slowly moving away from the concept that everything should be owned and run by the government. A few decades ago anyone earning a profit through his or her own initiative would have been labeled a "vile capitalist" and severely punished.

 

These days though individual enterprise is very much encouraged by the government and many small privately owned businesses have appeared in the last two decades.

 

The large businesses are still very much under government control but eventually these too will be privately owned and run.

 

China unlike Russia realized that the Communist system could not be dumped overnight and that the transition would be a slow and cautious one and with good reason judging from what they saw happening in Russia

 

I always thought that Gorbachev wanted a form of state controlled capitalism that China now has, but the country followed Yeltsin's form of economic anarchism instead after his role in defeating the atempted KGB coup.

[Harleyman]

So which socialist state would you put forward as the shining beacon that we should aspire to become?

 

 

 

Some states incorporate socialist policies but alongside capitalism. I would say Norway would be a good example of that and it has been highly succesful as a society

[Rupert_Baehr]

My point as regards China is that the Chinese government are slowly moving away from the concept that everything should be owned and run by the government. A few decades ago anyone earning a profit through his or her own initiative would have been labeled a "vile capitalist" and severely punished.

 

These days though individual enterprise is very much encouraged by the government and many small privately owned businesses have appeared in the last two decades.

 

The large businesses are still very much under government control but eventually these too will be privately owned and run.

 

China unlike Russia realized that the "Communist system?" could not be dumped overnight and that the transition would be a slow and cautious one and with good reason judging from what they saw happening in Russia

 

Moving slowly away? - I don't think so. There was a programme about Shanghai on TV last week. The interviewer talked to a businessman who had a $600,000 Rolls-Royce (apparently they cost twice as much there as they do in the UK) a Cadillac, a Lamborghini and a long list of exotic cars. Hesaid his goal wasto become richer than Bill Gates.

 

The interviewer also talked to a number of businesswomen. One of them owns a factory which makes clothes for a number of European fashion houses. (Makes sense, I suppose. - If you're a major fashion house, you can either have Chinese sweat shops making knock-off copies of your product, or you can licence them to do it and provide the outlet.)

 

The lady was a multi-millionairess. I doubt that the people who actually make the clothes were particularly wealthy.

 

Communist China is where you go if you want to become very rich by exploiting the workers.

[Harleyman]

I always thought that Gorbachev wanted a form of state controlled capitalism that China now has, but the country followed Yeltsin's form of economic anarchism instead after his role in defeating the atempted KGB coup.

 

And what did Yeltsin's economic anarchism achieve? Racketeers and mobsters took over making fortunes for themselves and the average Russian got screwed worse than ever.

 

Imagine what would have happened in China with it's population if they had followed the same course

[lizmachin]

My point as regards China is that the Chinese government are slowly moving away from the concept that everything should be owned and run by the government. A few decades ago anyone earning a profit through his or her own initiative would have been labeled a "vile capitalist" and severely punished.

 

These days though individual enterprise is very much encouraged by the government and many small privately owned businesses have appeared in the last two decades.

 

The large businesses are still very much under government control but eventually these too will be privately owned and run.

 

China unlike Russia realized that the "Communist system?" could not be dumped overnight and that the transition would be a slow and cautious one and with good reason judging from what they saw happening in Russia

 

I lived much of my life in Hong Kong and still work here for a couple of months each year. I expected the place to change when the colony was handed back to China. If anything it has moved further away for the old Chinese model, and China is moving more towards Hong Kong than the other way around. On the surface they preach communism but in reality they embrace capitalism. In cities like Shanghai you will find massive amounts of western investment and joint ventures with western companies. Volkswagen now make more cars in China than they do in Germany. The chinese government is run by old men who are reluctant to admit that the system they administered was no good, and in a large country things need to progress slowly. But believe me under the surface there is a massive vibrant capitalist system waiting to fully emerge.

[Harleyman]

Moving slowly away? - I don't think so. There was a programme about Shanghai on TV last week. The interviewer talked to a businessman who had a $600,000 Rolls-Royce (apparently they cost twice as much there as they do in the UK) a Cadillac, a Lamborghini and a long list of exotic cars. Hesaid his goal wasto become richer than Bill Gates.

 

The interviewer also talked to a number of businesswomen. One of them owns a factory which makes clothes for a number of European fashion houses. (Makes sense, I suppose. - If you're a major fashion house, you can either have Chinese sweat shops making knock-off copies of your product, or you can licence them to do it and provide the outlet.)

 

The lady was a multi-millionairess. I doubt that the people who actually make the clothes were particularly wealthy.

 

Communist China is where you go if you want to become very rich by exploiting the workers.

 

No doubt you have valid points but you must remember that China is also moving away from a nation of mostly rural peasantry to potentially becoming a major industrial power as every pundit agrees.

 

The sweat shop worker for whatever he or she is paid is now better off than his or her father or grandfather was.

 

Progress in a country like China moves slowly but the Chinese mind is a patient one and I would be prepared to bet that by mid century barring any unforseen catastrophe that we will see an astonishing change in that country.

[grafikhaus74]

And btw, politicians who get paid for being politicians are by definition professionals.

 

As is a plumber. Or brickie. Or welder.

 

The difference is, these people have all trained to carry out their professions. Politicians haven't. They're all in it for the power and perks. How many MPs were guilty of the expenses fiddle? All of them! If they didn't actually fiddle themselves, they were fully aware of what was going on.

 

But while threads like this degenerate into the usual, Northern tribalism they'll continue to get away with it.

 

It's all a game. There is a tacit understanding among 'them' that, when they are found out to be useless they will be found a job on a quango, EU or board somewhere. 4 or 5 years later, the other lot will be found to be equally useless and the cycle continues.

[lizmachin]

Some states incorporate socialist policies but alongside capitalism. I would say Norway would be a good example of that and it has been highly succesful as a society

 

 

You've totally lost me here. Norway is a monarchy with elected democratic government pretty much like the UK but their electoral system favours coalition governments. What has that got to do with socialism?

[Berberis]

Socialist? Who was that?

 

And btw, politicians who get paid for being politicians are by definition professionals.

 

Nope.

 

A professional is a member of a vocation founded upon specialised educational training. The word professional traditionally means a person who has obtained a degree in a professional field.

 

You are getting confused with professional sports people who are called professional when they are paid to do their sport as opposed to amateur when they do not.