Hillsborough disaster, where were you?

[Mr Bloom]

People apparently prefer to believe reports in newspapers, even though they have been withdrawn, accepted to be lies and apologised for, rather than accept evidence produced by an official inquiry presided over by a judge.

 

Sometimes that is easier for some, especially those who have associations with organisations that are now in the spotlight.

[Michael_W]

Here is the footage from the Hillsborough Independent panel site, showing some of the build up of the crowd outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles, on the 15th April 1989, titled 'The opening of gate C'.

 

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html

[mjw47]

Here is the footage from the Hillsborough Independent panel site, showing some of the build up of the crowd outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles, on the 15th April 1989, titled 'The opening of gate C'.

 

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html

 

An extremely instructive film and commentary. All those posters who are still insistent that the fans were to blame should view it before commenting further.

 

Points which stood out.

 

Leppings Lane had seven turnstiles for a capacity of 10,000.

The kop had twice the capacity but six times the number of turnstiles.

 

This problem was pointed out by the police following the injuries sustained at the 1981 semi and ignored by the club.

 

Looking at the closeup scenes of the crowd outside the Leppings Lane end it is obvious that other than the overcrowding, there is no difference to any other well attended game of football anywhere else in the country at the time.

 

At one point a young fan is crushed and the fans make every effort to move back and allow him to be extracted from the crowd. That is not how a drunken mob behave.

 

A few fans climbed the walls but more to get away from the crush than gain free entry. As the commentator said most if not all had tickets.

In my view they probably all had tickets, you don't turn up to the gates with thousands of fans behind you and try to force your way in at that stage, surely you wait until the last moment hoping the gates will be opened?

 

As to the police assertion that they couldn't prevent access to the central tunnel because the crowd was too uncontrollable, that was shown to be nonsense.

 

Firstly, that was precisely what was done the previous year when the same teams were involved.

 

Secondly the crowd are shown to be walking into the ground after the gate was opened and in fact some were stopping and waiting for mates who they'd been separated from in the crush outside.

 

The whole tragedy could have been avoided if the incoming fans had been directed to the two side pens which were only half full.

 

In my view a large proportion of responsibility for this was down to allowing Chief Superintendent Duckenfield to take overall command without sufficient experience of that type of event.

 

This was not Duckenfields fault, it was a failure of management at a higher level.

[Michael_W]

An extremely instructive film and commentary. All those posters who are still insistent that the fans were to blame should view it before commenting further.

 

Points which stood out.

 

Leppings Lane had seven turnstiles for a capacity of 10,000.

The kop had twice the capacity but six times the number of turnstiles.

 

This problem was pointed out by the police following the injuries sustained at the 1981 semi and ignored by the club.

 

Looking at the closeup scenes of the crowd outside the Leppings Lane end it is obvious that other than the overcrowding, there is no difference to any other well attended game of football anywhere else in the country at the time.

 

At one point a young fan is crushed and the fans make every effort to move back and allow him to be extracted from the crowd. That is not how a drunken mob behave.

 

A few fans climbed the walls but more to get away from the crush than gain free entry. As the commentator said most if not all had tickets.

In my view they probably all had tickets, you don't turn up to the gates with thousands of fans behind you and try to force your way in at that stage, surely you wait until the last moment hoping the gates will be opened?

 

As to the police assertion that they couldn't prevent access to the central tunnel because the crowd was too uncontrollable, that was shown to be nonsense.

 

Firstly, that was precisely what was done the previous year when the same teams were involved.

 

Secondly the crowd are shown to be walking into the ground after the gate was opened and in fact some were stopping and waiting for mates who they'd been separated from in the crush outside.

 

The whole tragedy could have been avoided if the incoming fans had been directed to the two side pens which were only half full.

 

In my view a large proportion of responsibility for this was down to allowing Chief Superintendent Duckenfield to take overall command without sufficient experience of that type of event.

 

This was not Duckenfields fault, it was a failure of management at a higher level.

 

I'm not so sure the footage makes anything clear mjw, but I suppose it's all a case of how you view it.

The Leppings Lane turnstiles could not cope with the number of fans that turned up after 2:30 ..... but remember the same two teams had played the year before and the same situation had not arisen, how do you control how many fans turn up at any given time ? You can't, yes ideally you have more turnstiles to cope with the numbers, it's a pity nobody had worked that out before !

The police lost control outside the ground, the footage shows that, the amount of fans that had gathered in that space would have created enough distress for many adult males never mind women and youngsters, I have been in those situations, with fewer numbers and known wooden exit gates burst open under pressure, at 2 SWFC away matches in the early 80s, so I speak from experience !

The fans did not rush in once the gate was open, but there were sufficient numbers to bypass what police or steward presence was there, from the footage is it unclear how many are on the inside of the gate, there are definitely police outside. I agree that the crush could have been avoided by diverting the fans away from the central pens, unfortunately the control had been lost and neither police nor stewards had the presence to do so !

I agree 100 % that Duckenfield did not have the experience to take overall command !

Edited April 9, 2014 by Michael_W

[rossyrooney]

A lot of the crowding round the turnstiles could have been alleviated if tickets had been inspected away from the ground as in previous years, the flow of fans is then controlled by the bobbies inspecting them.

[mjw47]

I have also been involved in similar - but thankfully not as serious - crowd scenes and as I'm sure you'll agree they can be a bit frightening.

 

It had been worked out before that additional turnstiles were needed. The police sent a report to the club following the 81 semi recommending structural improvements. This was disputed by McGee in his infamous ' Horlicks, no one would have died ' remark. He did not say 'horlicks.'

 

The tunnel had been blocked off by the police at the previous semi involving the same teams once it was clear that the central areas were full to capacity.

 

As I mentioned previously I was friendly with the previous commander who was far more experienced than Duckenfield in controlling these events.

 

He explained to me that his method was to leave the control room under the command of an experienced trusted officer and then accompanied by a driver in a police Land Rover tour the perimeter of the ground.

 

Any problems would be communicated to him by police radio from the control room and he would attend the scene and make a decision as to what action to take once he had personally assessed the situation.

 

David Duckenfield decided to do it the other way around. He remained in the control room and had officers radio in reports of problems.

 

With hindsight the previous method was better. In the report you linked to Duckenfield was described as 'hesitant' with regard to whether or not to open the gate.

He was reliant upon his officers suggestion and CCTV pictures to assess the situation.

 

There should surely have been some discussion between the previous ground commander and Duckenfield as to how best to handle the policing of such an event?

 

This discussion should have been part of the laid down procedure and done as a matter of course when it was decided to change Chief Superintendents.

 

The fact that it wasn't is the responsibility of officers higher up the chain of command.

Duckenfield took over at Hammerton Road and his predecessor was moved to Barnsley.

Apart from a brief handover meeting - which I don't know happened - they may never have crossed paths before the event.

[Ruprecht1st]

I have also been involved in similar - but thankfully not as serious - crowd scenes and as I'm sure you'll agree they can be a bit frightening.

 

It had been worked out before that additional turnstiles were needed. The police sent a report to the club following the 81 semi recommending structural improvements. This was disputed by McGee in his infamous ' Horlicks, no one would have died ' remark. He did not say 'horlicks.'

 

The tunnel had been blocked off by the police at the previous semi involving the same teams once it was clear that the central areas were full to capacity.

 

As I mentioned previously I was friendly with the previous commander who was far more experienced than Duckenfield in controlling these events.

 

He explained to me that his method was to leave the control room under the command of an experienced trusted officer and then accompanied by a driver in a police Land Rover tour the perimeter of the ground.

 

Any problems would be communicated to him by police radio from the control room and he would attend the scene and make a decision as to what action to take once he had personally assessed the situation.

 

David Duckenfield decided to do it the other way around. He remained in the control room and had officers radio in reports of problems.

 

With hindsight the previous method was better. In the report you linked to Duckenfield was described as 'hesitant' with regard to whether or not to open the gate.

He was reliant upon his officers suggestion and CCTV pictures to assess the situation.

 

There should surely have been some discussion between the previous ground commander and Duckenfield as to how best to handle the policing of such an event?

 

This discussion should have been part of the laid down procedure and done as a matter of course when it was decided to change Chief Superintendents.

 

The fact that it wasn't is the responsibility of officers higher up the chain of command.

Duckenfield took over at Hammerton Road and his predecessor was moved to Barnsley.

Apart from a brief handover meeting - which I don't know happened - they may never have crossed paths before the event.

 

Very interesting to read your contribution. I defer to your knowledge and the thought you have given to this issue. I suppose my point was almost a philosophical one regarding one persons responsibility to another.

 

I wonder if you have an equally well thought through opinion on the aftermath? Were statements altered? Did Bettison and co conspire? What is the evidence?

[mjw47]

Very interesting to read your contribution. I defer to your knowledge and the thought you have given to this issue. I suppose my point was almost a philosophical one regarding one persons responsibility to another.

 

I wonder if you have an equally well thought through opinion on the aftermath? Were statements altered? Did Bettison and co conspire? What is the evidence?

 

Well there does appear to be evidence that police notebook statements were altered after the fact and even a claim the West Midlands Police were involved in altering witness statements.

 

The West Midland Force have 'form' in tampering with the truth of course.

 

Accusations of 'editing' the police video also emerged last year.

 

Try http://www.news.sky.com/story/1151328/hillsborough-police-may-have-edited-video

 

The whole situation was a terrible tragedy by any standards but if the coverup is proven it will destroy the credibility of senior police serving at that time.

 

This is not something any reasonable person should take pleasure in, but invariably it's what happens when someone decides to hide the truth and shift blame onto others.

 

People will accept that mistakes are made, and as long as no malice is involved forgiveness, and even a certain amount of sympathy are possible.

 

What appears to have taken place here following this tragedy however is unforgivable,if proven we are talking about a massive conspiracy involving people who held positions of authority, and who were directly responsible for the safety of the general public.

[JFKvsNixon]

So does the video show that the over crowding started well before the start of the game, and it wasn't caused by fans arriving late?

[Ruprecht1st]

Well there does appear to be evidence that police notebook statements were altered after the fact and even a claim the West Midlands Police were involved in altering witness statements.

 

The West Midland Force have 'form' in tampering with the truth of course.

 

Accusations of 'editing' the police video also emerged last year.

 

Try http://www.news.sky.com/story/1151328/hillsborough-police-may-have-edited-video

 

The whole situation was a terrible tragedy by any standards but if the coverup is proven it will destroy the credibility of senior police serving at that time.

 

This is not something any reasonable person should take pleasure in, but invariably it's what happens when someone decides to hide the truth and shift blame onto others.

 

People will accept that mistakes are made, and as long as no malice is involved forgiveness, and even a certain amount of sympathy are possible.

 

What appears to have taken place here following this tragedy however is unforgivable,if proven we are talking about a massive conspiracy involving people who held positions of authority, and who were directly responsible for the safety of the general public.

 

I suppose that is, ultimately the bottom line on all of this, accidents happen, people make mistakes and sometimes such mistakes can lead to the death of innocent people. All can be understood and forgiven. But, if lies are told in order to cover up that is unforgiveable.

 

Let us hope that the evidence exonerates those who have had this hanging over them. Lets also hope that the bereaved can at last move on.

 

Thanks for your insights, many comment including me, who haven't actually fully and objectively studied the issues.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Ruprecht1st