flamingjimmy Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 How can it come from itself?There's nothing else it could have come from. But in any case I haven't said that it comes from itself. I choose to believe that I can trust my senses, that does not require any metaphysics. You really haven't demonstrated how you think it does. You just keep saying 'it just does'. Like in mathematics you can posit an internally consistent logical framework, but you can't define it in to existence. You need something external to the framework to fix it with reality. That is the flaw with the "Ontological Argument" for the existence of God. You can't allow the physical world to define itself in to existence any more than you can God.I haven't defined it into existence. I've acknowledged that I don't really know that it does exist, and I'm comfortable with that. I just choose to believe in it because otherwise I would learn nothing and be at a dead end of understanding and there'd be no point in talking to you or anyone else about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanerothyme Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 "The ontological argument argument examines the concept of God, and states that if we can conceive of the greatest possible being (or anything else I presume), then it must exist." (Wiki) That is probably true for every invention going. It does rather sound like you are comparing God to an invention there, which I'm sure wasn't the idea! No, it's quite specific to conception of a supreme being. It's effectively a trick and easily undermined, but it does only refer to 'God', and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 No, it's quite specific to conception of a supreme being. It's effectively a trick and easily undermined, but it does only refer to 'God', and nothing else. The atheists get-out clause? People conceived the television and flight, everything was there and it happened. Whatever, I'm no philosopher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 There's nothing else it could have come from. But in any case I haven't said that it comes from itself. I choose to believe that I can trust my senses, that does not require any metaphysics. You really haven't demonstrated how you think it does. You just keep saying 'it just does'. I haven't defined it into existence. I've acknowledged that I don't really know that it does exist, and I'm comfortable with that. I just choose to believe in it because otherwise I would learn nothing and be at a dead end of understanding and there'd be no point in talking to you or anyone else about it. How do you know your five senses are all there are? Can you detect radio signals with your senses. Animals have senses we don't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 There's nothing else it could have come from. But in any case I haven't said that it comes from itself. I choose to believe that I can trust my senses, that does not require any metaphysics. You really haven't demonstrated how you think it does. You just keep saying 'it just does'. I haven't defined it into existence. I've acknowledged that I don't really know that it does exist, and I'm comfortable with that. I just choose to believe in it because otherwise I would learn nothing and be at a dead end of understanding and there'd be no point in talking to you or anyone else about it. Where did the concept of self come from such that you could make the pragmatic decision you describe? Are you really suggesting you made such a complex rational calculation as a baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 How do you know your five senses are all there are?I don't, I never said that. Also I've got way more than 5 senses. Can you detect radio signals with your senses.I can detect electro-magnetic waves, but not at radio frequency, no. Animals have senses we don't have.yes, and...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Where did the concept of self come from such that you could make the pragmatic decision you describe? Are you really suggesting you made such a complex rational calculation as a baby? I have no idea what my thought process was as a baby. I do not remember becoming self aware. How about you just come out and tell me in what way metaphysics is required to get past solipsism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 It does rather sound like you are comparing God to an invention there, which I'm sure wasn't the idea! No, it's quite specific to conception of a supreme being. It's effectively a trick and easily undermined, but it does only refer to 'God', and nothing else. I admit to hesitating when I used the word 'invented' and nearly used 'discovered' instead. The dictionary defines the word “religion” as what man does for the God they think exists. However, Christianity is about what God has done for mankind. There is nothing in the dictionary that defines “religion” as what God has done for mankind. Therefore I have always said that Christianity is not a religion and that is what sets it apart from Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 Flamingjimmy, you have faith in the external world because of a pragmatic calculation, because it works for you. Why not allow religious people to justify their belief on the same basis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted November 1, 2010 Share Posted November 1, 2010 I don't, I never said that. Also I've got way more than 5 senses. I can detect electro-magnetic waves, but not at radio frequency, no. yes, and...? I'm just saying to keep an open mind, that is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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