Time to exit the EU & ECHR

[mj.scuba]

I'm not asking about the effect, I'm asking about the cause.

 

I'll rephrase, to make it simpler. Ask yourself: why would a British employer employ a foreign national over a Brit?

 

(I'll confess to being an EU migrant myself, and from a long line of EU country-hopping workers, so you'll have to excuse my natural aversion for nationalist rethoric...which has always been the same whenever economic conditions worsen. Funny how precious few ever complain about 'dem 'furreiners when the going's good and everyone is coining it on their back, eh? )

 

I think you will find it has been a hot topic since well before the economic downturn.

 

The cause is inconsequential, what has happened is what matters.

4m new jobs created. 1.2m taken by the home population, 2.8m taken by economic migrants. More than two jobs taken by economic migrants for every job taken by an UK citizen.

 

How can that be right, morally or economically?

I'm sure it helps you to use labels like 'nationalist' so use them if you wish, but it does not illegitimise my viewpoint. Personally I think it was a travesty for such a large proportion of our population to have been bypassed by the boom.

 

Had the UK been able to control inward migration from the EU (and had the UK Government decided to do so) then UK firms would have had to employ more UK workers.

[L00b]

I think you will find it has been a hot topic since well before the economic downturn.

Tepid, at most.

 

It's human nature, mj. As I posited, it's been the same routine/dynamic for decades and decades, in any country you care to name.

 

10 Boom? Darn, not enough manpower about. Quick, let's import some workers to keep the momentum going.

20 Bust? Look at all these benefit-stealing, scrounging foreigners stealing the work from our hands and the bread from our mouths. Quick, let's get rid of them.

30 GOTO 10

 

The cause is inconsequential, what has happened is what matters.

Why, is the truth of the above a bit too inconvenient for you?

4m new jobs created. 1.2m taken by the home population, 2.8m taken by economic migrants. More than two jobs taken by economic migrants for every job taken by an UK citizen.

Again: why do you think this was the case? Were UK employers forced to employ EU/non-EU migrants rather than Brits? Show me some examples, and statutes and rulings, please.

How can that be right, morally or economically?

Here's an idea: why not asking those who created the jobs in the first place, and promoted, and benefitted from, the above, i.e. the public and private employers?

I'm sure it helps you to use labels like 'nationalist' so use them if you wish, but it does not illegitimise my viewpoint.

You try justifying however you want, I'm calling it for what it is.

 

Or do you believe that the impecunious situation of the UK now confers some newfound legitimacy to your viewpoint? Where are the pre-2008 threads about rampant, out-of-control immigration?

Had the UK been able to control inward migration from the EU (and had the UK Government decided to do so) then UK firms would have had to employ more UK workers.

You mean, coerce UK employers into hiring based on policies of national preference, rather than according to market opportunities and/or skillsets? That "label"?

[Tony]

10 Boom? Darn, not enough manpower about. Quick, let's import some workers to keep the momentum going.

20 Bust? Look at all these benefit-stealing, scrounging foreigners stealing the work from our hands and the bread from our mouths. Quick, let's get rid of them.

30 GOTO 10

*starts planning retirement in accordance with L00b's timetable*

[mj.scuba]

Loob - what has happened over the last 10 years ragarding immigartion is academic and we could debate the effects of immigration for pages and pages.

 

Question - can the UK exercise control over migration into it's territory?

Answer - NO. Because we are part of the EU.

 

This is the real issue.

 

Question - should the UK have the power to exercise control over it's own borders and control the level of inward migration?

Answer - YES.

 

If you answered NO to the latter question, I'd like to hear a good argument for why we should not be able to decide things for ourselves and for the good of our own nation.

[truman]

Loob - what has happened over the last 10 years ragarding immigartion is academic and we could debate the effects of immigration for pages and pages.

 

Question - can the UK exercise control over migration into it's territory?

Answer - NO. Because we are part of the EU.

 

This is the real issue.

 

Question - should the UK have the power to exercise control over it's own borders and control the level of inward migration?

Answer - YES.

 

If you answered NO to the latter question, I'd like to hear a good argument for why we should not be able to decide things for ourselves and for the good of our own nation.

 

 

Just a point of clarification..we're only stopped from control of EU nationals..we can control non EU immigration..I think that's how it is anyway..

[L00b]

Loob - what has happened over the last 10 years regarding immigration is academic and we could debate the effects of immigration for pages and pages.

It is eminently not academic: it is factual and directly related to your OP/viewpoint. Whether 20 years ago, 10 years ago, or currently: the rules were and still are the same.

Question - can the UK exercise control over migration into it's territory?

Answer - NO. Because we are part of the EU.

YES. Save as to intra-EU migration (and then again, some EU Member States are less equal than others with the UK - e.g. Romania). Reciprocally, might I add (an oft forgotten aspect of EU transational movements to/from the UK).

 

EDIT - as regards the more recent Eastern European State migrants, I seem to distinctly recall that the UK, like most other EU States, was given the chance to set a cap on numbers of Poles etc. but opted not to, like Ireland. So, again, nowt to do with 'because of the EU', all to do with Brit employers salivating at the prospect and lobbying the politicans to ignore the opportunity.

 

Non-EU migrants still have to request and obtain permission to come over and stay (for however long), last I checked

This is the real issue.

It's a non-issue, because...

Question - should the UK have the power to exercise control over it's own borders and control the level of inward migration?

Answer - YES.

...the UK has the power to exercise control over its own borders and control the level of inward migration. Save as to intra-EU migration (and then again, some EU Member States are less equal than others with the UK - e.g. Romania).

 

Cue the continued existence, funding and activity of specialist gorvernment agencies, e.g. the UK's Border Agency, dedicated to this particular area.

 

Erm...Have you forgotten your point, though? What of your "70% jobs filled by foreigners"?

[dormiles]

Exiting EU is two-bladed sword. Take my example. I worked outside of UK for some time and am really glad about it. Now i'm back and i have no problem finding myself a job. Being in EU was a win-win situation for me.

[Phoenix One]

The folly of mass immigration

 

The argument of the ‘People Flow’ report that mass immigration is normal, irreversible and beneficial to host societies is a damaging illusion. Rather, the current experience of developed western countries, faced with huge inflows of people – refugees, asylum-seekers, economic migrants – from poorer parts of the world, is unprecedented and damaging. The process can and should be stopped, in the interests of the rich diversity of nations it will otherwise crush.

 

Read more: http://www.opendemocracy.net/people-migrationeurope/article_1193.jsp

[mj.scuba]

It is eminently not academic: it is factual and directly related to your OP/viewpoint. Whether 20 years ago, 10 years ago, or currently: the rules were and still are the same.

YES. Save as to intra-EU migration (and then again, some EU Member States are less equal than others with the UK - e.g. Romania). Reciprocally, might I add (an oft forgotten aspect of EU transational movements to/from the UK).

 

EDIT - as regards the more recent Eastern European State migrants, I seem to distinctly recall that the UK, like most other EU States, was given the chance to set a cap on numbers of Poles etc. but opted not to, like Ireland. So, again, nowt to do with 'because of the EU', all to do with Brit employers salivating at the prospect and lobbying the politicans to ignore the opportunity.

 

Non-EU migrants still have to request and obtain permission to come over and stay (for however long), last I checked

 

It's a non-issue, because...

...the UK has the power to exercise control over its own borders and control the level of inward migration. Save as to intra-EU migration (and then again, some EU Member States are less equal than others with the UK - e.g. Romania).

 

Cue the continued existence, funding and activity of specialist gorvernment agencies, e.g. the UK's Border Agency, dedicated to this particular area.

 

Erm...Have you forgotten your point, though? What of your "70% jobs filled by foreigners"?

 

My bold/large - that is exactly my point - we currently have no control over numbers of migrants coming into the UK from the EU.

 

Same as we have no control over excluding prisoners from voting. Whether they should or shouldn't, it should be a decision for the UK Houses of Parliament to make, but it has been decided for us by a European Court.

[alchresearch]

10 Boom? Darn, not enough manpower about. Quick, let's import some workers to keep the momentum going.

20 Bust? Look at all these benefit-stealing, scrounging foreigners stealing the work from our hands and the bread from our mouths. Quick, let's get rid of them.

30 GOTO 10

 

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