The Tory ministers of the 80's should be put on trial for the Ridley plan.

[Tony]

13. he has a sickel and a hammer tattooed on his lower back

[Mr Prime]

First. Scargill was a known communist and member of the commie party for a long time.

Second. He had a track record of refusing democracy when it didn't suit him (see the vote for the last miner's strike - That's 'what vote?' in case anyone can't remember)

Third. He has a record of using violence against political opponents or those that refuse to do as ordered. (See 'scabs in last miner's strike)

Fourth. Scargill was very well supported by the communists in his rise to leadership of the NUM. Do you really think they did that without wanting payback?

Fifth, He was a supporter of the repressive communist states in the former Soviet union.

Sixth. He was actively trying to bring down a democratically elected government.

Seventh. Scargill met Khrushchev in 1956 and scolded him for trying to move away from Stalinism, telling him that "you can't get rid of him by removing his body from the mausoleum".

Eighth. Scargill celebrates the October 1917 revolution. (what an idiot)

Ninth. 3 Jul 2004 ... Although Scargill declared the SLP to be a “Marxist Party”

Tenth. He admitted he supports the old communist governments in the east and wants a communist government in the UK. He was also clear in his intention to remove a democratically elected government by force.

Eleventh. He actually believes the sun shines out of his arse as proven by the fact he started a Marxist party and actually believed people were stupid enough to vote for it.

Twelth. He insisted that the strike was a quasi-revolutionary act (His own words)

 

Much of that is factually inaccurate for starters but I'll deal with that in time. You have not explained how on the day MacGregor announced the pit closure plan was being withdrawn due to the industrial action by the NUM this turned the UK into a communist state. Now I have put this question to many union/Scargill haters over the years and not one has given me an answer, just generalist points like the above. Are you suggesting that on the day of the strikes victory the NUM would march on London? On arrival they would declare themselves the new government? That the army, police and MI5 would simply say "well Arthur's in charge now"? How exactly would the strikes victory have done this?

[mossdog]

Much of that is factually inaccurate for starters but I'll deal with that in time. You have not explained how on the day MacGregor announced the pit closure plan was being withdrawn due to the industrial action by the NUM this turned the UK into a communist state. Now I have put this question to many union/Scargill haters over the years and not one has given me an answer, just generalist points like the above. Are you suggesting that on the day of the strikes victory the NUM would march on London? On arrival they would declare themselves the new government? That the army, police and MI5 would simply say "well Arthur's in charge now"? How exactly would the strikes victory have done this?

I have had conversations with many on both sides of the fence regarding Arthur! most seem to draw the conclusion, and without malice in most cases, that he was just an over ambitious nutter! Who could remind you of a prominent leader of the Third Reich on a bad hair day!

[Mr Prime]

First. Scargill was a known communist and member of the commie party for a long time.

Second. He had a track record of refusing democracy when it didn't suit him (see the vote for the last miner's strike - That's 'what vote?' in case anyone can't remember)

Third. He has a record of using violence against political opponents or those that refuse to do as ordered. (See 'scabs in last miner's strike)

Fourth. Scargill was very well supported by the communists in his rise to leadership of the NUM. Do you really think they did that without wanting payback?

Fifth, He was a supporter of the repressive communist states in the former Soviet union.

Sixth. He was actively trying to bring down a democratically elected government.

Seventh. Scargill met Khrushchev in 1956 and scolded him for trying to move away from Stalinism, telling him that "you can't get rid of him by removing his body from the mausoleum".

Eighth. Scargill celebrates the October 1917 revolution. (what an idiot)

Ninth. 3 Jul 2004 ... Although Scargill declared the SLP to be a “Marxist Party”

Tenth. He admitted he supports the old communist governments in the east and wants a communist government in the UK. He was also clear in his intention to remove a democratically elected government by force.

Eleventh. He actually believes the sun shines out of his arse as proven by the fact he started a Marxist party and actually believed people were stupid enough to vote for it.

Twelth. He insisted that the strike was a quasi-revolutionary act (His own words)

 

Let's get some facts sorted, not hazy outdated tabloid hysteria and impressions but plain facts. I have spent thousands of hours studying the strike as it was the subject of my masters dissertation so I only say what I know can be checked.

 

1. & 4. A member of the Communist party who left in his twenties because the party stifled initiative. Secondly the broad left including communists supported him in his rise. However if you knew what you were talking about you will also know the communist party did not support the strike and encouraged him to call it off. By the 50's the party was no longer revolutionary, believed in parliament and had a habit of telling younger members to cut their hair and put on a tie. "payback" therefore has no meaning and is just judging others by your own cynical standards.

 

2. Scargill was elected with a massive 70% vote in a secret ballot. Between his election and the strike there were three national votes on whether to take strike action. All narrowly voted no and so there was no strike. In 81 there were wildcat strikes starting in Wales that spread out and Scargill told them all to get back to work. Not many people know that because it doesn't suit the agenda of him being strike happy.

 

3. Violence. Scargill condemned "all violence that takes place away from the picket line". Ah but that leaves violence on the picket line? So what? While thousands of pickets around the country sometimes directed violence against scabs Scargill was attending negotiations. Anyone who understands human nature will not be surprised that the pro strike majority sometimes wanted to assault traitors. Everyone hates traitors and of course violence by the police and scabs was perfectly acceptable of course.

 

5 & 7. Repressive states. If you knew all the facts you would know he had frequent arguments with representatives of communist states. He famously returned from a trip to Bulgaria telling the UK press "if that's communism they can bloody well keep it". Easily checkable if you scratch below the surface. His comment to Khruschev was a criticism of airbrushing history. He went on to say "it would be like us pretending Churchill never existed". However the full meaning of that exchange does not suit your selective agenda.

 

6. Where did Scargill ever say he wanted to bring down the government? He did say in various interviews that he wanted an end to capitalism and was its enemy. I have read probably every or almost every interview with the man and the closest he came to this was "if capitalism fails then we take over" in New Left Review and "we can roll back the years of Thatcherism". Others on the left often criticised him for not having a grand plan for bringing down the government. The most he wanted was to see Thatcher fall in humiliation but since her Majesty's opposition try and do that every day to the government there is nothing wrong with this unless he was talking about armed revolt. He wasn't, unless you can source some evidence that he was? You won't be able to I guarantee it.

 

8. He celebrates the 1917 revolution? You'll be telling us the Tsar was misunderstood next.

 

9. Oh my God a Marxist! So what? He's entitled to his opinions and 150,000 men voted him into power based on his opinions. How many would vote for you?

 

10. He used the words socialism and commented on the eastern bloc being far too repressive as already mentioned. There is no evidence that he wanted governments removed by force.

 

11. The SLP was a big mistake. Had he stood in a rock solid former mining seat he may have got into parliament, instead he foolishly went to Hartlepool and Newport.

 

12. Quasi revolutionary is not the same as revolutionary. e.g. he was confirming my point that in mobilising the workers to determine their own lives they were acting in a revolutionary manner. However this does not translate into a pre planned revolution unless you can find evidence of a planned march on parliament and seizure of the BBC, Scotland Yard and MI5 HQ?

 

Finally he did not start the strike, ordinary miners at Cortonwood did when they realised the government was dropping agreements without consultation and that Scargill had been right for the previous 3 years. Any Sheffielder around at the time will tell you masses of miners marched on the Sheffield HQ to demand the wildcat strike be declared official. The leadership agreed. Scargill as president did not even use his vote as it was not required. The BBC bulletin of the day got it right when it said "union tells miners we'll support you but there will be no ballot".

[Tradescanthia]

Let's get some facts sorted, not hazy outdated tabloid hysteria and impressions but plain facts. I have spent thousands of hours studying the strike as it was the subject of my masters dissertation so I only say what I know can be checked.

 

1. & 4. A member of the Communist party who left in his twenties because the party stifled initiative. Secondly the broad left including communists supported him in his rise. However if you knew what you were talking about you will also know the communist party did not support the strike and encouraged him to call it off. By the 50's the party was no longer revolutionary, believed in parliament and had a habit of telling younger members to cut their hair and put on a tie. "payback" therefore has no meaning and is just judging others by your own cynical standards.

 

2. Scargill was elected with a massive 70% vote in a secret ballot. Between his election and the strike there were three national votes on whether to take strike action. All narrowly voted no and so there was no strike. In 81 there were wildcat strikes starting in Wales that spread out and Scargill told them all to get back to work. Not many people know that because it doesn't suit the agenda of him being strike happy.

 

3. Violence. Scargill condemned "all violence that takes place away from the picket line". Ah but that leaves violence on the picket line? So what? While thousands of pickets around the country sometimes directed violence against scabs Scargill was attending negotiations. Anyone who understands human nature will not be surprised that the pro strike majority sometimes wanted to assault traitors. Everyone hates traitors and of course violence by the police and scabs was perfectly acceptable of course.

 

5 & 7. Repressive states. If you knew all the facts you would know he had frequent arguments with representatives of communist states. He famously returned from a trip to Bulgaria telling the UK press "if that's communism they can bloody well keep it". Easily checkable if you scratch below the surface. His comment to Khruschev was a criticism of airbrushing history. He went on to say "it would be like us pretending Churchill never existed". However the full meaning of that exchange does not suit your selective agenda.

 

6. Where did Scargill ever say he wanted to bring down the government? He did say in various interviews that he wanted an end to capitalism and was its enemy. I have read probably every or almost every interview with the man and the closest he came to this was "if capitalism fails then we take over" in New Left Review and "we can roll back the years of Thatcherism". Others on the left often criticised him for not having a grand plan for bringing down the government. The most he wanted was to see Thatcher fall in humiliation but since her Majesty's opposition try and do that every day to the government there is nothing wrong with this unless he was talking about armed revolt. He wasn't, unless you can source some evidence that he was? You won't be able to I guarantee it.

 

8. He celebrates the 1917 revolution? You'll be telling us the Tsar was misunderstood next.

 

9. Oh my God a Marxist! So what? He's entitled to his opinions and 150,000 men voted him into power based on his opinions. How many would vote for you?

 

10. He used the words socialism and commented on the eastern bloc being far too repressive as already mentioned. There is no evidence that he wanted governments removed by force.

 

11. The SLP was a big mistake. Had he stood in a rock solid former mining seat he may have got into parliament, instead he foolishly went to Hartlepool and Newport.

 

12. Quasi revolutionary is not the same as revolutionary. e.g. he was confirming my point that in mobilising the workers to determine their own lives they were acting in a revolutionary manner. However this does not translate into a pre planned revolution unless you can find evidence of a planned march on parliament and seizure of the BBC, Scotland Yard and MI5 HQ?

 

Finally he did not start the strike, ordinary miners at Cortonwood did when they realised the government was dropping agreements without consultation and that Scargill had been right for the previous 3 years. Any Sheffielder around at the time will tell you masses of miners marched on the Sheffield HQ to demand the wildcat strike be declared official. The leadership agreed. Scargill as president did not even use his vote as it was not required. The BBC bulletin of the day got it right when it said "union tells miners we'll support you but there will be no ballot".

 

Post of the week, no bullsh*t, only fact. Our forum right wingers will not agree but tough, its all true. I have a good memory as well.

 

:clap::clap:

[Wildcat]

Finally he did not start the strike, ordinary miners at Cortonwood did when they realised the government was dropping agreements without consultation and that Scargill had been right for the previous 3 years. Any Sheffielder around at the time will tell you masses of miners marched on the Sheffield HQ to demand the wildcat strike be declared official. The leadership agreed. Scargill as president did not even use his vote as it was not required. The BBC bulletin of the day got it right when it said "union tells miners we'll support you but there will be no ballot".

 

Cortonwood had recently been refurbished and was producing some of the cheapest coal in the coalfield, cheaper than Hatfield which survived until 1993, and is still producing coal today.

 

Cortonwood was a clear sign that MacGregor was making cuts for political not economic reasons. It is no wonder people were angry.

 

As I understand it at the end of the debate and immediately before the vote Scargill did speak, but it was only for unity and respect on the picket lines. He didn't express an opinion either way on what decision the delegates should make.

[Rupert_Baehr]

Cortonwood had recently been refurbished and was producing some of the cheapest coal in the coalfield, cheaper than Hatfield which survived until 1993, and is still producing coal today.

 

Cortonwood was a clear sign that MacGregor was making cuts for political not economic reasons. It is no wonder people were angry.

 

As I understand it at the end of the debate and immediately before the vote Scargill did speak, but it was only for unity and respect on the picket lines. He didn't express an opinion either way on what decision the delegates should make.

 

Yes, but under Scargill, those pits would only produce coal if he said so. Nothing to do with the people who worked them but one of the advantages of being Scog il yung (the glorious leader.)

[Longcol]

Stupid comment of the week

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/uploaded_images/unemployment-71-05-736294.gif

 

Interested in the source please - not just the graph you've posted but the source website.

 

Honestly don't remember any announcement of 1 million unemployed until the late 70's - certainly not under Heath. When I left school in '73 you could walk into the "Labour Exchange" and pick up no end of jobs.

[Wildcat]

Yes, but under Scargill, those pits would only produce coal if he said so. Nothing to do with the people who worked them but one of the advantages of being Scog il yung (the glorious leader.)

 

Utter nonsense, it was the workers in those very pits who's actions created the dispute!......... and even if true, how is that supposed to justify MacGregor closing down an economic pit? The only 'Stalinist' authoritarianism going on was coming from the state with their use of the military and secrets services to break a section of workers.

[Wildcat]

Interested in the source please - not just the graph you've posted but the source website.

 

Honestly don't remember any announcement of 1 million unemployed until the late 70's - certainly not under Heath. When I left school in '73 you could walk into the "Labour Exchange" and pick up no end of jobs.

 

It was a stupid comment, but all the same a million unemployed was a lot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/26/newsid_2506000/2506335.stm

 

As his graph shows the Tories (after Heath) have never been good at looking after people's jobs.

http://www.economicshelp.org/uploaded_images/unemployment-71-05-736294.gif