The Salary Dispute !

[Fartown]

Interesting comments...

 

I just think jobs where you have to put your life on the line should be rewarded appropriately!

 

So what are you suggesting? A few hundred years ago, buildings (those which were 'protected' against fire) had plaques on them so that the firemen who arrived in the event of a fire could decide whether they should extinguish the fire. Those who paid got their fire put out. Those who didn't were welcome to toast marshmallows at the fire.

 

Are you saying that people should (as individuals) pay the full cost of having fires extinguished? should people pay the full cost of medical treatment?

 

At the moment, the state subsidises those services. The state also sets the payment for those who don't work as independent firefighters, but choose to work in the state system.

 

Are you suggesting state-run plumbing service?

 

A few years ago I wrote a business plan for a friend of mine (a plumber.) (I also wrote his billing software ... and was rewarded handsomely )

 

My friend wanted to work 5 days a week. Most of us do that, but unfortunately, plumbing 'problems' occur at any time of the day, 365 days a year. If he wants to keep his customers, he has to provide 24 hour a day 365 day a year service. Is it so unreasonable to expect 'anti-social' hours payments? Do those who work for the state/private companies not get them?

 

At the time I wrote his business plan, he wanted to make £400 a week. (That was a while ago, but hardly an excessive salary.) To make £400 a week after he'd paid his overheads and running costs he needed to charge about £45 an hour (including VAT.)

 

You cited a plumber who charged you £55 an hour for two hours work. How much did he charge you for the time he spent estimating the work? Or for the time he spent getting the parts to do the job? Or for the wages of the person who scheduled the work, did his paperwork and sent him on the job? Or for the time (and travel costs) getting to your house? Or for the time he sat around waiting for you to call him and give him the job?

 

Is he supposed to do all that for nothing?

 

Do you work for nothing?

 

I also happen to think lawyers, solicitors, barristers etc are grossly overpaid and charge exhorbitant amounts in expenses.

 

They have now, in most cases, put legal representation beyond the pocket of the ordinary man or woman.

 

Again. Who pays for the office? Who pays for the secretaries, legal assistants, clerical and research staff?

 

Who (and this is topical) pays the solicitor for the time (s)he spent at university getting the law degree? Who pays the difference between a professional salary and a 'training contract' salary while the graduate lawyer was training to be a solicitor?

 

(This is topical because if students are going to have to pay for their university courses [and that does seem to be fair] they are going to want to recover the money they have to repay from their clients. Which is also fair. I have a friend who is a doctor in America. He left University with a student debt of $240,000. His patients are repaying that debt. Graduates in the UK will have debts and they will obtain the money to pay those debts from their customers. Both of the customers who engage consultants in Dance and Equine studies can expect to pay hefty fees.)

 

i think solicitors are really overpaid, when my dad passed away and didnt leave a will i had to get a certificate from a solicitor to prove i was the person sorting out his fianances. i got various prices ranging from £350 to £650 plus vat. i eventually got the papers myself, which took me to me 20 minutes to fill in and cost me £90. Bit of a difference eh. For solicitors they should be put under sharks or rip off merchants in the yellow pages telephone directory

 

If it really is 'money for old rope', why aren't you a solicitor?

 

just for info anyone who has done a 4-5 year apprenticeship in any trade (not one of the recent "get rich quick 3 week plumbing courses) deserves to earn a decent living. sparkies and plumbers can earn from £20k to 40k usually depending on how hard they want to work and if they are prepared to work away from home etc contracting.

refridgeration engineers can earn anything from 30-40k with overtime.

skilled jobs can earn reasonable money. unskilled jobs earn much less, ie mates/labourers 15k-20k.

police/fire/nursing get 30k say to 35k, after 2-4yrs training, so its not badly paid.

 

doctors will do around 7 yrs training to get around £75k, consultants with say 10yrs earn a min 100k and upto 200k without any trouble, thats very well paid in anyones eyes.

 

generally the longer it takes to learn the trade the more money is made in it from my experience

 

Correct. Doctors spend the first 5 years at university, where they pay for their own food, pay for their own accommodation, pay for the course and earn nothing. That's why they demand high pay.

 

Consider the concept of 'barriers to entry':

 

If the job has low barriers to entry (requires minimal or low qualifications which cost little or nothing to get) then there will be many applicants, many practitioners and the pay will be low.

 

If the barriers to entry are very high (the job requires high qualifications which take a long time to obtain and which cost a lot of money) then the number of practitioners is likely to be low and the fees they charge will be very high.

 

It's a simple concept, but apparently large numbers of people (including those about to enter the workforce) in the UK aren't capable of understanding it.

 

If I was 16-18years old and thinking about higher education prior to entering the workforce in the UK and if the government was threaten me with hefty university fees, then I wouldn't give a damn. What I would do is make sure I was going to get a qualification which would allow me to charge enough money to recoup those fees. I wouldn't want a 'degree' which would qualify me to flib burgers in McDonalds; I'd want a degree from a respected University which would allow me to demand a pay rate which would recompense me for my training costs.

[donuticus]

Why shouldnt they earn more than the services? Oh let me think? errrrrr

 

How about fixing a leaking pipe or running into a burning building to pull someone out before the place falls down? or a paramedic saving someones life? No ?

 

Very few people are paid wat their worth. In this life you don't earn wht you deserve you earn what you can negotiate.

[Fartown]

Very few people are paid wat their worth. In this life you don't earn wht you deserve you earn what you can negotiate.

 

Indeed, but very few people are forced to take a particular job.

 

If you don't like the work, or if you don't like the pay, change jobs. Nobody is going to stop you from getting a better job.

[ChrisT70]

So what are you suggesting? A few hundred years ago, buildings (those which were 'protected' against fire) had plaques on them so that the firemen who arrived in the event of a fire could decide whether they should extinguish the fire. Those who paid got their fire put out. Those who didn't were welcome to toast marshmallows at the fire.

 

Are you saying that people should (as individuals) pay the full cost of having fires extinguished? should people pay the full cost of medical treatment?

 

At the moment, the state subsidises those services. The state also sets the payment for those who don't work as independent firefighters, but choose to work in the state system.

 

Are you suggesting state-run plumbing service?

 

A few years ago I wrote a business plan for a friend of mine (a plumber.) (I also wrote his billing software ... and was rewarded handsomely )

 

My friend wanted to work 5 days a week. Most of us do that, but unfortunately, plumbing 'problems' occur at any time of the day, 365 days a year. If he wants to keep his customers, he has to provide 24 hour a day 365 day a year service. Is it so unreasonable to expect 'anti-social' hours payments? Do those who work for the state/private companies not get them?

 

At the time I wrote his business plan, he wanted to make £400 a week. (That was a while ago, but hardly an excessive salary.) To make £400 a week after he'd paid his overheads and running costs he needed to charge about £45 an hour (including VAT.)

 

You cited a plumber who charged you £55 an hour for two hours work. How much did he charge you for the time he spent estimating the work? Or for the time he spent getting the parts to do the job? Or for the wages of the person who scheduled the work, did his paperwork and sent him on the job? Or for the time (and travel costs) getting to your house? Or for the time he sat around waiting for you to call him and give him the job?

 

Is he supposed to do all that for nothing?

 

Do you work for nothing?

 

 

 

Again. Who pays for the office? Who pays for the secretaries, legal assistants, clerical and research staff?

 

Who (and this is topical) pays the solicitor for the time (s)he spent at university getting the law degree? Who pays the difference between a professional salary and a 'training contract' salary while the graduate lawyer was training to be a solicitor?

 

(This is topical because if students are going to have to pay for their university courses [and that does seem to be fair] they are going to want to recover the money they have to repay from their clients. Which is also fair. I have a friend who is a doctor in America. He left University with a student debt of $240,000. His patients are repaying that debt. Graduates in the UK will have debts and they will obtain the money to pay those debts from their customers. Both of the customers who engage consultants in Dance and Equine studies can expect to pay hefty fees.)

 

 

 

If it really is 'money for old rope', why aren't you a solicitor?

 

 

 

Correct. Doctors spend the first 5 years at university, where they pay for their own food, pay for their own accommodation, pay for the course and earn nothing. That's why they demand high pay.

 

Consider the concept of 'barriers to entry':

 

If the job has low barriers to entry (requires minimal or low qualifications which cost little or nothing to get) then there will be many applicants, many practitioners and the pay will be low.

 

If the barriers to entry are very high (the job requires high qualifications which take a long time to obtain and which cost a lot of money) then the number of practitioners is likely to be low and the fees they charge will be very high.

 

It's a simple concept, but apparently large numbers of people (including those about to enter the workforce) in the UK aren't capable of understanding it.

 

If I was 16-18years old and thinking about higher education prior to entering the workforce in the UK and if the government was threaten me with hefty university fees, then I wouldn't give a damn. What I would do is make sure I was going to get a qualification which would allow me to charge enough money to recoup those fees. I wouldn't want a 'degree' which would qualify me to flib burgers in McDonalds; I'd want a degree from a respected University which would allow me to demand a pay rate which would recompense me for my training costs.

 

 

very well put.

[donuticus]

Indeed, but very few people are forced to take a particular job.

 

If you don't like the work, or if you don't like the pay, change jobs. Nobody is going to stop you from getting a better job.

 

Exactly. I agree completely. You know the level of reward you will receive when you begin employment if it isn't what you're looking for you're welcome to look elsewhere.

[espadrille]

What is the average pay for a Yorkshire plumber anyway?

 

about (say) 45k a year for a good self employed plumber with an apprenticeship.

[madasfish]

I wasn't asking for a break down on hourly rates etc guys and to say their price fluctuates depending on how much work someone has is ridiculous.

 

The question was should these people (including giving free quotes, driving to collect a part etc) should earn more than our emergency services, soliders etc?

 

I thiught that I was trying to explain that the hourly rate that you quoted was possibly inaccurate..........and I did not say the price of a job would fluctuate - but that there income would.

 

How do you know they earn more than the other occupations that you quote?

[40summat]

A self employed plumber will have to pay for his own tools and equipment, work vehicle, and insurances, also advertising costs etc so what you pay him probably doesn't go straight into his back pocket.

[marc1990]

Good Thread

[ChrisT70]

about (say) 45k a year for a good self employed plumber with an apprenticeship.

 

council/nhs are on circa £25k i believe, but provided with pension/annual leave etc on top. once someone on 45k has paid their taxes/tools/van /hols etc it wont be a lot more.