Straw criticised for abuse comments !

[esme]

Mod Note

 

Please try debate the issue without the name calling and accusations.

[Kaimani]

You know he was Australia's most senior Islamic Cleric, right?

 

Claiming his words are not representative of Islam is akin to claiming the words of the Archbishop of York or Archbishop of Canterbury are not representative of Christianity, or perhaps that Lord Sacks (the UK's current Chief Rabbi) doesn't speak for Judaism.

 

isn't it truer that the archbishop speaks for the church of England, not Christianity, and lord sacks speaks for mainstream orthodoxy. this Australian guy might only speak for some branch of Islam, not the whole.

[boyfriday]

So it's these girls fault and their families fault that they were attacked because they were 'vulnerable and discarded'?

Not in the slightest, nor did I in any way suggest that.

And what does vulnerable and discarded mean?

Its quite simple, they were vulnerable in that they were in a position where they were susceptible to abuse. Discarded in that they were within the care system, presumably with no positive influence from their biological parents, assuming of course they were in a position to exercise some influence.

If making women wonder around in burkhas, not allowed out without male relatives, not allowed to drive, forced into marriage, not allowed to work is your idea of protected and cherished I would rather be vulnerable and discarded thank you very much.

The discussion is about a claim made by some that cultural influences were responsible for these men behaving the way they did-I was simply pointing out that the parental influences of Muslims parents make them less susceptible to abuse, Im not championing it generally or getting into a wider debate about it.

You say "are you saying the inability of men to groom and sexually abuse Muslim girls is a bad thing" well yes, if that inability comes about because of threats and fear and curtailing of Muslim girls freedom that is a bad thing. You shouldn't have to prevent crimes like this by curtailing the freedom of victims and it's only acceptable to suggest that when it's a crime against women.

I think I'm talking about the influence that a loving parent might naturally want to have over their children, the victims of these assaults were children, not subjugated adults.

If asian men were being racially attacked in Oldham would it be acceptable to say that it doesn't matter because they went out at night? No it wouldn't be. In the first instance when the men approach these girls it's in the street, they're doing nothing wrong and parents shouldn't have to worry about their daughters being vulnerable to this and lock them up to stop it happening.

Forgive me, but at no point have I claimed these girls are doing anything wrong, you're placing two and two together and making five.

 

I am highlighting the failures in the care system that allow vulnerable girls to become victims in this way, all of them were identified as being 'vulnerable' they weren't the daughters of doctors or solicitors, the common feature amongst all of them wasn't their skin colour-as they weren't all white, but their vulnerability.

[spindrift]

isn't it truer that the archbishop speaks for the church of England, not Christianity, and lord sacks speaks for mainstream orthodoxy. this Australian guy might only speak for some branch of Islam, not the whole.

 

 

he was the mufti, but the point is mainstream muslim thought violently disagreed with what he said, which wasn't what bassman claimed anyway.

[boyfriday]

How did they find out they were not practising muslims, maybe the church tried to diassociate themselves from such people? It's what I would do in such a circumstance and besides are people only muslims if they go to church?

 

The police had them under surveillance, and they claimed they were mosque worshippers which was proved to be a lie.

[Mecky]

The police had them under surveillance, and they claimed they were mosque worshippers which was proved to be a lie.

 

Maybe the police decided just to say that so the UK public didn't tar all muslims with the same brush or take retribution? I wouldn't put it past them, it would probably help to ease tensions.

[Kaimani]

he was the mufti, but the point is mainstream muslim thought violently disagreed with what he said, which wasn't what bassman claimed anyway.

 

of course mainstream Islam arbores such things. the point is that the words of one nut tend to color a whole religion when, as with the example of the archbishop and the rabbi, each of the three has so many branches some might as well be different religions.

[boyfriday]

Maybe the police decided just to say that so the UK public didn't tar all muslims with the same brush or take retribution? I wouldn't put it past them, it would probably help to ease tensions.

 

Or maybe it was just a plain old lie that the defendants created to make them look like upstanding citizens? Not that observing a religion necessarily makes one individual any better than another.

[JFKvsNixon]

I never understood Straws comments where he said that Asian men looked upon their victims as easy meat, isn't that the nature of almost all forms of abuse? The abuser chooses their victim because they judge them to be vulnerable.

[Kaimani]

I never understood Straws comments where he said that Asian men looked upon their victims as easy meat, isn't the the nature of almost all forms of abuse? The abuser chooses their victim because they judge them to be vulnerable.

 

beautiful point.