Straw criticised for abuse comments !

[spooky3]

yes, they have changed. only thing is now with globalization and technology we have a situation where people who were on opposite sides of wars, colonizations, religious upheaval etc come face to face so the situation is infinitely more complex than if there where only white anglo-saxon here, or just black Africans in Africa.

 

many of the memories are quite fresh, especially among those on the 'losing end' which is why people bring up some things and you think 'move on' and they're shocked just as you might be shocked that they brought 'something from so long ago' up.

 

i think it's a shame we only ever get , tops, a hundred or so years on the planet. if this was lord of the rings and we live to a thousand we would be more understanding and patient as we'd see that most of the things we're talking about now have been talked about over and over through the centuries. there's nothing new about 'foreign hordes', 'feral youth', 'fading empires', 'super powers falling, new ones rising'. had we'd been there when the crusades, the war, the revolutions(industrial, agricultural and political) happened we'd have less friction i think.

in the mean time, we post, as someone says, on the internets.

NOT SURE WHERE ALL THIS CAME FROM:loopy:

 

 

You know my views on Zimbabwe (may not like how it was carried out, but technically support it). My views apply across the board.

 

Slavery has been "technically" abolished and is only carried out by unscrupulous groups, religious zealots or extreme regimes.

 

Democracy is being spread across the world by multicultural societies who see it as just and fair for all.

 

No the world is not yet perfect, but a lot of people form all "sides" are trying!

[Kaimani]

You know my views on Zimbabwe (may not like how it was carried out, but technically support it). My views apply across the board.

 

Slavery has been "technically" abolished and is only carried out by unscrupulous groups, religious zealots or extreme regimes.

 

Democracy is being spread across the world by multicultural societies who see it as just and fair for all.

 

No the world is not yet perfect, but a lot of people form all "sides" are trying!

 

there are many different types of democracy though. nations should not force a form of democracy they tested, revised, and tested again, and are still testing, on cultures and societies that have nothing in common with them. that's the problem, i think.

the zim situation is an example i would say.

[spooky3]

there are many different types of democracy though. nations should not force a form of democracy they tested, revised, and tested again, and are still testing, on cultures and societies that have nothing in common with them. that's the problem, i think.

the zim situation is an example i would say.

 

So what forms of democracy would you say is fair for all people? You know, human rights? There are surely some basics we should be able to agree to conform to? We all have commonalities, until that basic premise is agreed, then the world has no chance. Why should somebody be more equal than another?

[Kaimani]

So what forms of democracy would you say is fair for all people? You know, human rights? There are surely some basics we should be able to agree to conform to? We all have commonalities, until that basic premise is agreed, then the world has no chance. Why should somebody be more equal than another?

 

yes, we all have common needs-equality, freedom, happiness etc. my point is English democracy is different from American democracy, the same for German, Spanish etc. transporting the American model wholesale to, say, Iraq, or the English( even the four isles can't quite agree on what form is best for all) to Zimbabwe won't work.

 

as a basic concept, yes, but this is not what the big nations are trying to do.

[spooky3]

yes, we all have common needs-equality, freedom, happiness etc. my point is English democracy is different from American democracy, the same for German, Spanish etc. transporting the American model wholesale to, say, Iraq, or the English( even the four isles can't quite agree on what form is best for all) to Zimbabwe won't work.

 

as a basic concept, yes, but this is not what the big nations are trying to do.

 

What about the UN?

 

Is anybody doing anything right?

[Kaimani]

What about the UN?

 

Is anybody doing anything right?

 

what about the UN?

yes, a lot of people and nations are doing a lot right, and a lot wrong. pointing out what someone is doing wrong doesn't negate what they're doing right.

[LordChaverly]

I'm certainly not championing cultural separatism, my own family are a walking, talking hopefully successful model for the opposite, but even with the indigenous culture there exist differences that keep people separate, Im thinking principally of the class system.

 

A middle class white person is likely to have more in common with a middle class muslim than they are a working class member of their own race.

 

As Kaimani alluded to earlier, integration takes time-50 years ago it was seen as impossible that black immigrants would integrate reasonably well into the indigenous culture, although the job was made easier by them sharing the same language and religious observation.

 

It will take longer with Asian immigrants, but provided they have Western, non secular influences in school, college and university environments then it will happen over time.

 

bf, the integration and/or assimilation of immigrants from the West Indies was in a qualitatively different category to immigrants from the Indian sub-continent, because of the tenacity of the cultural and family links of the latter. Conversely, West Indian immigrants (as immigrants from Europe into the US have tended to do) soon loosened their ties with their original homelands and identified with their new country. A key aspect of this has been the tendency of immigrants from the Indian sub-continent to seek spouses from their original homeland, even today, where a substantial proportion of British born Asians still source their spouses in this way.

[LordChaverly]

i agree with all that( strange:hihi:) i have little time for people that have been here since the 60s yet still need interpreters and the like. this happened back in the day but it was conquest, so i supposed the situation was different. the result would be the same though-resentment, distrust etc.

to add though, i think to expect cultures to totally assimilate and/or adjust within a generation is asking too much.

 

I don't think that total assimilation is on the agenda. There is a balance to be struck between assimilation and retention of cultural values and practices. I think the Hindus and Sikhs have achieved this balance very well. Indeed, there was some evidence of this produced just before Christmas and widely disseminated in the press, to the effect that Hindus and Sikhs have become an integral part of Middle England (e.g. rising fast up the career and property ladders and sharing many of the values of the 'white' middle classes), but without losing their identities as Hindus or Sikhs. An example of one of these stories is given below.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338395/How-Sikhs-Hindus-bedrock-middle-Britain.html

[boyfriday]

bf, the integration and/or assimilation of immigrants from the West Indies was in a qualitatively different category to immigrants from the Indian sub-continent, because of the tenacity of the cultural and family links of the latter. Conversely, West Indian immigrants (as immigrants from Europe into the US have tended to do) soon loosened their ties with their original homelands and identified with their new country. A key aspect of this has been the tendency of immigrants from the Indian sub-continent to seek spouses from their original homeland, even today, where a substantial proportion of British born Asians still source their spouses in this way.

 

I agree that the common cultural values made things much easier for West Indians coming here.

 

However I still baulk and feel angry at how my grandparents were treated and expected to behave when they arrived here 60 years ago, it's for that reason I wouldn't 'force' our culture on newcomers (other than at least basic language skills) any more than I would expect all Brits to integrate with them either-although it would be a nice if it happened.

 

Asian immigrants have a harder job of it, but many of the old timers still regard Britain as the 'Mother Country', personally I believe the problems don't necessarily lie with 1st generation immigrants, but their offspring. In the early 80's I lived in Nether Edge and many of my neighbours were Asian Muslims, they were mostly delightful people, we had a young baby and they were always happy to help out. There weren't the crime and anti social behaviour issues evident then that people are concerned about in 2011.

 

The troublemakers down there now are the children and grandchildren of those people, they speak English, live Western lives and have been the beneficiaries of a comprehensive education-very much like the gangs Straw alluded to in his comments.

 

I don't for a second believe these lads are ignorant of how to behave or that their culture condones their activities-the Asian men I knew well in the 80's had only the deepest respect for women in the community, my wife included and the many female students who also lived locally.

 

In the 70's the spotlight was on black youths many of whom were problematic for various reasons. I hope that the reasons some Asian youths are behaving badly are similar and this isn't a characteristic of who they are.

[LordChaverly]

I agree that the common cultural values made things much easier for West Indians coming here.

 

However I still baulk and feel angry at how my grandparents were treated and expected to behave when they arrived here 60 years ago, it's for that reason I wouldn't 'force' our culture on newcomers (other than at least basic language skills) any more than I would expect all Brits to integrate with them either-although it would be a nice if it happened.

 

Asian immigrants have a harder job of it, but many of the old timers still In the 70's the spotlight was on black youths many of whom were problematic for various reasons. I hope that the reasons some Asian youths are behaving badly are similar and this isn't a characteristic of who they are.

 

Many of the indigenous inhabitants of the islands, particularly in the areas most affected, still baulk and feel angry at how their areas were changed beyond recognition by mass immigration which was, in a de facto sense forced on them by irresponsible and mendacious governing elites. As for the comparison between the bad behaviour of black and 'Asian' (read Pakistani) youths, I think there is a qualitative difference. based on attitudes towards the dominant culture and, indeed, towards its people. For example, during the Brixton riots, the hostility of the rioters was directed towards the police, not to 'whites' in general. Contrast this with the Bradford riots, where there were many instances of 'whites' being attacked, as well as the police.