boyfriday Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Many of the indigenous inhabitants of the islands, particularly in the areas most affected, still baulk and feel angry at how their areas were changed beyond recognition by mass immigration which was, in a de facto sense forced on them by irresponsible and mendacious governing elites. The indigenous inhabitants may not have been granted a choice, but they rarely reflect on the positive aspects of post war immigration. MacMillan claimed in 1957 that the British had 'never had it so good', so whilst many of the indigenous population might have been angry about mass immigration, they were beneficiaries of an economy and social healthcare system that immigrants helped create, the alternative might have been a totally white landscape, but then there would have been no bus to take them to work, or nurse to give them a bed bath. Incidentally, my grandparents had done nothing wrong, they came here (after being invited), left their children behind until they'd established themselves (3 years), worked hard, didnt rattle any sabres and became homeowners-yet still received abuse from total strangers. Frankly I've no sympathy for indigenous Brits who baulked at their presence, they were simply neighbours in a different coloured skin. As for the comparison between the bad behaviour of black and 'Asian' (read Pakistani) youths, I think there is a qualitative difference. based on attitudes towards the dominant culture and, indeed, towards its people. For example, during the Brixton riots, the hostility of the rioters was directed towards the police, not to 'whites' in general. Contrast this with the Bradford riots, where there were many instances of 'whites' being attacked, as well as the police. I wasn't really thinking about the urban riots but the general propensity towards crime and anti social behaviour by some black youths in the 70's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordChaverly Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The indigenous inhabitants may not have been granted a choice, but they rarely reflect on the positive aspects of post war immigration. MacMillan claimed in 1957 that the British had 'never had it so good', so whilst many of the indigenous population might have been angry about mass immigration, they were beneficiaries of an economy and social healthcare system that immigrants helped create, the alternative might have been a totally white landscape, but then there would have been no bus to take them to work, or nurse to give them a bed bath. Incidentally, my grandparents had done nothing wrong, they came here (after being invited), left their children behind until they'd established themselves (3 years), worked hard, didnt rattle any sabres and became homeowners-yet still received abuse from total strangers. Frankly I've no sympathy for indigenous Brits who baulked at their presence, they were simply neighbours in a different coloured skin. I wasn't really thinking about the urban riots but the general propensity towards crime and anti social behaviour by some black youths in the 70's. bf, I doubt very much if MacMillan had immigrants in mind at all when he claimed 'we had never had it so good'. As for the benefits of immigration, most of these putative benefits were based on ex-post facto rationalisations and were seldom, if ever quanitified or measured against the costs (in either economic terms or in terms of the impact of immigration on social cohesion). I do agree though that immigration benefited certain sections of society (in particular employers, who had access to bottomless pools of cheap labour) but by no means all. You mention that immigrants helped to create the health service, but fail to mention that immigrants were granted access to welfare benefits of all kinds as soon as they entered these shores, including of course access to the NHS. Indeed, reading some accounts of the trials and tribulations of Commonwealth immigrants into this country, one might think that they were engages in a heroic struggle to carve out a life for themselves in barren and virgin territory, whereas the reality was that they were amongst the most cosseted immigrants in world history (e.g. with access to welfare, education and housing support, the right to bring their families with them, the right to vote etc) as soon as they stepped off the plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Star Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 the flaw is in the hypocracy of the English demanding others integrate with the English while the English do no such thing and never have done. This is the flaw of your argument - most english who live abroad intergrate... You cite Spain, but even in Spain hundreds live and work among the spainish and catalans, and have chosen to live a new life... You wouldn't be able to economically active and live apart - although I do realise that many old men and old ladies retireto their place in the sun, and live with other english... You don't have much idea of what your argument is, if pensioners living in close proximity to one another in Spain is the start and end of your issue with english who have emigrated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Star Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Mods - why are you allowing so many irrelevant posts? I do hope that you aren't planning to close this thread 'due to it being sidetracked'? Please remove all the daft, irrelevant comments - cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane39 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Mods - why are you allowing so many irrelevant posts? I do hope that you aren't planning to close this thread 'due to it being sidetracked'? Please remove all the daft, irrelevant comments - cheers! Well that's you buggered then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Star Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The RC church didn't invent paedophila though - that actually is a unreasonable thing to say... In fact, there are countries where you can get married before puberty, so it might be that it was such places who invented it? Such as certain states in the US? we agree in essence. what i meant with that statement, perhaps not worded right, is that if the Muslim community feels under siege some of them might start pointing to the catholic church for pedophilia to deflect attention. same as the EDL thing with them pointing to The Prophet(PBUH). hope this clears that. What I meant was the impression now is that islam 'should' be under seige - the impression has been that Islam has been under siege for a while now. it only seems more that way now in the UK because of the paper reports. why this is so, i was trying to say, is partly due to do with the fact that the PC people and police etc feared inciting race tension so swept things under the carpet. now that all is coming out, exaggerated or not, it begins to feel that that strategy was ill advised coz its achieving the exact opposite of what it wanted. I do think that the media and the police have a lot to be blamed for with this whole thing... Social services too, where violence and abuse have been ignored or swept aside as 'culture'... What is right for one section of society when it comes to right and wrong, and legal and illegal, is ok for all... Anyone who has ever lived abroad knows about when you first find out something is inappropriate in that country - you may have had no idea before, but when you are pulled up on it, either in a social situation, or more extreme, by the police:o you soon find out and endeavour not to do it again... To have ignored such vile acts - murder, violation, physical and sexual abuse - for so long has created more problems that it has prevented... Are we to now expect a new paedo story every other week? This could have been prevented if those who commit such acts had been challenged much earlier, and the stories printed in the media as all others are without prejudice... I think we are in essence in agreement anyways - I was a bit floored by the RC inventing paedophilia though... No one group ever invented this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Star Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Well that's you buggered then. Not really - I reckon I'm the only one trying to pull it back! Just had a idea that it might be closed soon, when the deletion of the irrelevant could get it back on track... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 bf, I doubt very much if MacMillan had immigrants in mind at all when he claimed 'we had never had it so good'. You're quite right there , I'm pretty sure he didnt! I was just pointing out that in 1957 when he made the statement, indigenous Brits were enjoying a purple patch economically and socially. The rapid post war developments in the social and economic infrastructure required massive increases in workforce labour. My g/parents had been here nearly 10 years by then and played their own, small part in those developments along with other working class people, both black and white. As for the benefits of immigration, most of these putative benefits were based on ex-post facto rationalisations and were seldom, if ever quanitified or measured against the costs (in either economic terms or in terms of the impact of immigration on social cohesion). I do agree though that immigration benefited certain sections of society (in particular employers, who had access to bottomless pools of cheap labour) but by no means all. You mention that immigrants helped to create the health service, but fail to mention that immigrants were granted access to welfare benefits of all kinds as soon as they entered these shores, including of course access to the NHS. Indeed, reading some accounts of the trials and tribulations of Commonwealth immigrants into this country, one might think that they were engages in a heroic struggle to carve out a life for themselves in barren and virgin territory, whereas the reality was that they were amongst the most cosseted immigrants in world history (e.g. with access to welfare, education and housing support, the right to bring their families with them, the right to vote etc) as soon as they stepped off the plane. I appreciate what you say here LordC and perhaps it's something we can discuss another time, Im conscious we're drifting far away from the original subject matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaimani Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I do think that the media and the police have a lot to be blamed for with this whole thing... Social services too, where violence and abuse have been ignored or swept aside as 'culture'... What is right for one section of society when it comes to right and wrong, and legal and illegal, is ok for all... Anyone who has ever lived abroad knows about when you first find out something is inappropriate in that country - you may have had no idea before, but when you are pulled up on it, either in a social situation, or more extreme, by the police:o you soon find out and endeavour not to do it again... To have ignored such vile acts - murder, violation, physical and sexual abuse - for so long has created more problems that it has prevented... Are we to now expect a new paedo story every other week? This could have been prevented if those who commit such acts had been challenged much earlier, and the stories printed in the media as all others are without prejudice... I think we are in essence in agreement anyways - I was a bit floored by the RC inventing paedophilia though... No one group ever invented this... agreed. hope you understood the RC thing with reference to pedophilia. well, hope i explained OK why i said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 What is the evidence of paedophilia having been ignored in the Asian community aside from the fact they are under represented in the criminal population of sex offenders and of paedophiles? Sadly for the racists, the figures just do not support any attempt to paint British Muslims and Asians as sex predators on a national scale. Asians are, in fact, under-represented among sex offenders. As at June 2009, there were 7,021 British men in prison for sex crimes, of whom only 234 were Asian. That is 3.3 per cent, rather less than the proportion of Asians in the population. And a 2008 study by Malcolm Cowburn of Sheffield Hallam University found that jailed sex criminals from ethnic minorities were less likely to have abused children than white sex offenders. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8248347/Are-white-girls-really-easy-meat.html Note I think Asians make up about 4.4% of the population. Also: According to the statistics quoted here black people are 26 times more likely to be stopped and searched than anyone else. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23891388-shocked-mp-questions-stop-and-search-tactics.do Surely if the police are dealing with any community lightly or politically correctly, it is the white community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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