watchcoll Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 That would be interesting then - if they deny you use of the vehicle they are committing theft. it's something that always puzzled me, the legalities of it. if the customer refuses/can't pay and drives off then they can report the customer for theft of petrol. at self serve fuel stations the onus is on the customer to ensure they can pay for it before they take the goods. it's not like they can take it back out of the car, after all. and leaving without making payment is still theft whatever the circumstances, even if it was unintentional. (you wouldn't go to a restaurant and eat £40 of food and then say you can't pay and expect to be able to leave having filled in an IOU, for example). i suppose if the customer keeps the keys but leaves the car then they haven't 'stolen' the car and the goods haven't left the premises? it's not very good customer service, though. i would also think that it would leave the garage responsible for the car if the customer was compelled to leave it there too? i'd be interested to know what the police would do if they were called cos a customer was asked to leave their car and refused, but couldn't pay either. personally i think they should make all petrol pumps pay-at-pump. it would wipe out the risk of drive offs altogether (card fraud would rocket instead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_Baehr Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 That would be interesting then - if they deny you use of the vehicle they are committing theft. No they're not. Theft Act S1(1): "A person shall be guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it." How are you going to prove that they intend to deprive you permanently of your vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialPG Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I did it once, and left my watch as collateral, was back in 15 mins and paid the debt and picked up my watch, no way was i leaving a £120 pound watch to cover a £10 fuel bill for longer than 30 mins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 no they aren't - intention to PERMANENTLY deprive Until they go and get the money there is permanant intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 it's something that always puzzled me, the legalities of it. if the customer refuses/can't pay and drives off then they can report the customer for theft of petrol. at self serve fuel stations the onus is on the customer to ensure they can pay for it before they take the goods. it's not like they can take it back out of the car, after all. and leaving without making payment is still theft whatever the circumstances, even if it was unintentional. (you wouldn't go to a restaurant and eat £40 of food and then say you can't pay and expect to be able to leave having filled in an IOU, for example). i suppose if the customer keeps the keys but leaves the car then they haven't 'stolen' the car and the goods haven't left the premises? it's not very good customer service, though. i would also think that it would leave the garage responsible for the car if the customer was compelled to leave it there too? i'd be interested to know what the police would do if they were called cos a customer was asked to leave their car and refused, but couldn't pay either. personally i think they should make all petrol pumps pay-at-pump. it would wipe out the risk of drive offs altogether (card fraud would rocket instead). Firstly, the Sale of Goods Act and it's amendments state that if you buy a metered product that is metered at point of sale as a necessary act of selling then it becomes yours at the point of metering. Even if you havent paid for it. So, if you were to leave the forecourt it's not theft. You own it already. There is still a civil debt to the vendor though. Now, if you leave and you didnt deliberatly go without means of payment, and you didn't intent to permanantly evade payment, you can leave and it's not making off without payment. You dont even have to leave your name and address, although it's good manners to of course. I ended up at a station in Sheffield where they have teh signs up for pay by card etc, the logos saying visa/mastercard accepted here etc and filled up. Went in, and they had no machines working and hadnt been for a couple of days apparantly. So I said I post them a cheque. Owner gets stroppy and demands I pay with cash - sadly that cash was earmarked for the trailer I was on my way to pickup from an Ebay win so I pointed out I had a card and would pay but they souldnt advertise a payment method that isnt accepted. I point out someones waiting, and I'm leaving and will sort his problem out later by making payment later. Owner gets up and locks the door to stop me from leaving till I give him teh cash. Owner is arrested for false arrest, wrongful imprisonment, extortion. It pays on this sort of thing to be careful, as a lot of garages get it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchcoll Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Owner gets up and locks the door to stop me from leaving till I give him teh cash. Owner is arrested for false arrest, wrongful imprisonment, extortion. . quite right too! he had no right to lock you in the shop! most garages work on the taking peoples details bit and allowing them 7 days to return and pay. its pretty obvious that someone who has come into the shop and admitted not having the means to pay there and then isnt a criminal who had no intention of paying for £10 etc worth of fuel. the real drive offs are for £100's of pounds and the crims wont risk coming anywhere near the shop and its cctv, and leg it as soon as they can. even when someone has totally forgotten to pay for fuel and it has to be reported to the police to trace them, all the police do is contact that person and advise them to go pay, then check a few days later with the garage to make sure they have actually been and paid. paying him by cheque wouldnt have been an option, though. nowhere accepts cheques anymore and cannot process them as payment for sales. (same as people who invariably ask if they can call their wife/husband at home and pay by card over the phone - not possible as the card has to be present and a pin no entered to authorise it). he should have just taken your details and you could have paid on your return journey. locking you up was a bit extreme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel's Mum Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Firstly, the Sale of Goods Act and it's amendments state that if you buy a metered product that is metered at point of sale as a necessary act of selling then it becomes yours at the point of metering. Even if you havent paid for it. So, if you were to leave the forecourt it's not theft. You own it already. There is still a civil debt to the vendor though. . Not completely true - the 1978 additions to the Theft Act covers Making Off Without Payment so deliberately driving off isnt just a civil debt, its a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Not completely true - the 1978 additions to the Theft Act covers Making Off Without Payment so deliberately driving off isnt just a civil debt' date=' its a crime.[/quote'] Which is what I referenced in my post, however you missed the point that you have to have intent to avoid payment permanantly. If you cannot pay for whatever reason and it was a geniune mistake, then you are perfectly entitled to leave if you are going to make the payment later on and the garage certainly cannot stop you from doing so, nor can they indeed insist on any surety to conduct or distress your vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel's Mum Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Which is what I referenced in my post, however you missed the point that you have to have intent to avoid payment permanantly. If you cannot pay for whatever reason and it was a geniune mistake, then you are perfectly entitled to leave if you are going to make the payment later on and the garage certainly cannot stop you from doing so, nor can they indeed insist on any surety to conduct or distress your vehicle. No I didnt miss the point, that's why I put deliberately in italics I completely agree that the garage cant hold you against your will and I salute you for having them done for false imprisonment I only pointed out that it would be a crime if a drive off is deliberate in case anybody thought they could do a deliberate drive off and only be sued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 And what I said was correct in it's entirety. It is not theft. It could be something else, which I expounded upon later in the very next sentence. I applaud you for your selective quote out of context however that makes it look like I didn't consider that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.