decaff Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 So, if you were to leave the forecourt it's not theft. You own it already. There is still a civil debt to the vendor though. Wrong... Theft Act 1978 Section 3 provides: (1) ... a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with intent to avoid payment of the amount due shall be guilty of an offence. Everyone knows you have to pay for petrol therefore making off without paying is a simple case of theft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchcoll Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 with regards to the confusion about whether refusing/being unable to pay for fuel (rather than driving off without any intention to pay) i have no idea of the actual laws, but there's one experience that confirmed to me that the police do treat it as theft. a customer filled his company car up with unleaded instead of diesel. he had to pay for the unleaded, only to find out that his company fuel card could only be used to pay for diesel. his company refused to pay for the fuel as it had been his mistake so was his loss. he refused point blank to pay for the unleaded on his own bank card as he didn't want the fuel anymore (how he intended to return it to the garage, i dont know) anyway, after much pointless negotiating, we called the police. they told him in no uncertain terms that if he didnt pay for the unleaded then he would be arrested for theft. within seconds he was inside paying on his debit card (and cursing a bit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carosio Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Wrong... Theft Act 1978 Section 3 provides: (1) ... a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with intent to avoid payment of the amount due shall be guilty of an offence. Everyone knows you have to pay for petrol therefore making off without paying is a simple case of theft The key words here are the ones highlighted. The garage would have to prove beyond doubt that the driver intended to steal the fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carosio Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 with regards to the confusion about whether refusing/being unable to pay for fuel (rather than driving off without any intention to pay) i have no idea of the actual laws, but there's one experience that confirmed to me that the police do treat it as theft. a customer filled his company car up with unleaded instead of diesel. he had to pay for the unleaded, only to find out that his company fuel card could only be used to pay for diesel. his company refused to pay for the fuel as it had been his mistake so was his loss. he refused point blank to pay for the unleaded on his own bank card as he didn't want the fuel anymore (how he intended to return it to the garage, i dont know) anyway, after much pointless negotiating, we called the police. they told him in no uncertain terms that if he didnt pay for the unleaded then he would be arrested for theft. within seconds he was inside paying on his debit card (and cursing a bit). Once the fuel was in his tank, the driver had willingly entered into a contract to buy the unleaded and it was no fault of the garage that he chose the wrong type. Whilst still under the obligation to pay he then refused for no good reason, which constitutes a form of theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Wrong... Theft Act 1978 Section 3 provides: (1) ... a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with intent to avoid payment of the amount due shall be guilty of an offence. Everyone knows you have to pay for petrol therefore making off without paying is a simple case of theft No they don't. If I fill up and find that my payment isn't accepted, that I didn't have enough money, that my card is refused due to a bank error, whatever, there is no *dishonest* intent. There is also no intent to avoid payment. The offence of bilking therefore will not stand. Theft certainly won't stand as the fuel actually is your property at that point as I have noted before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandad.Malky Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Do the police only attend in the rain ? Only if they are rang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decaff Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The key words here are the ones highlighted. The garage would have to prove beyond doubt that the driver intended to steal the fuel. And if you drive away without telling the cashier you were coming back to pay there would be little difficulty in proving the intent to steal. Think the reasonable person test?? If you genuinely forget to pay you will have chance to put right the wrong before legal action is taken but if you don't then a theft conviction isn't going to be difficult to achieve, look at the caselaw on the subject Obelix - You are misguided if you believe that by transferring fuel into your car you own it. Fuel is offered for sale, this is an invitation to treat under contract law, upon commencing transfer of fuel you accept the terms of the contract and a deal is made, the outcome of you failing to pay is therefore an offence under commercial law if not the theft act. I could go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 And if you drive away without telling the cashier you were coming back to pay there would be little difficulty in proving the intent to steal. Think the reasonable person test?? Obelix - You are misguided if you believe that by transferring fuel into your car you own it. Fuel is offered for sale, this is an invitation to treat under contract law, upon commencing transfer of fuel you accept the terms of the contract and a deal is made, the outcome of you failing to pay is therefore an offence under commercial law. I could go on. I didn't say I was going to drive away wihtout approaching the cashier first now did I. Read what I said instead of trying to fit it to your agenda - I said after approaching and attempting to pay and then finding I was unable to. Offence implies criminal law - not civil law. You mean that there is an outstanding debt of course, however the property in the goods for a metered delivery passes to the buyer at the point of delivery. Review SOGA1979 sect 18 I think whcih will clarify things for you. As you have said though, upon dispensing the fuel a deal is made - you have a meeting of minds and property in the goods is transferred, even though consideration has not yet been tendered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decaff Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I didn't say I was going to drive away wihtout approaching the cashier first now did I. Read what I said instead of trying to fit it to your agenda - I said after approaching and attempting to pay and then finding I was unable to. Offence implies criminal law - not civil law. You mean that there is an outstanding debt of course, however the property in the goods for a metered delivery passes to the buyer at the point of delivery. Review SOGA1979 sect 18 I think whcih will clarify things for you. As you have said though, upon dispensing the fuel a deal is made - you have a meeting of minds and property in the goods is transferred, even though consideration has not yet been tendered. I wasn't answering your point when i mentioned not approaching the cashier. I assume you are an honest upstanding member of the community who would never dream of refusing to pay for your fuel If we're quoting SOGA1079 then read Section 2(1) A contract of sale of goods is a contract by which the seller transfers or agrees to transfer the property in goods to the buyer for a money consideration, called the price. so if you don't pay you have failed to fulfill your end of the contract have you not? Section 17 Property passes when intended to pass (1) Where there is a contract for the sale of specific or ascertained goods the property in them is transferred to the buyer at such time as the parties to the contract intend it to be transferred. (2) For the purpose of ascertaining the intention of the parties regard shall be had to the terms of the contract, the conduct of the parties and the circumstances of the case. terms of the contract indicate that once you have transferred the petrol to your vehicle you must pay for it because the garage intends to transfer the fuel to your vehicle in return for payment, at the same time you transfer the fuel to your car with the intention of paying. If you do not intend to pay you have committed an offence of theft when you drive away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You are arguing a point I never made. This whole debate about driving off has NEVER contended that a drive off is legal, so I fail to understand why you are shouting in the wind about something we are all in agreement about. However, as you have found from the SOGA property passes at the point of dispensing. Because of this, and entirely because of this the offence of making off without payment was created BECAUSE it was in fact impossible to proscute for THEFT in these cases... Get that? They created a law in 1979 SPECIFICALLY because it was legal to drive off without paying because you cannot steal your own property. No one is doubting that making off without payment is illegal. What is being debated is if a garage can stop your car from leaving once you have indicated you will come back and pay (they cannot - no one can) and if you commit the offence of theft (you cannot for the reasons that I and others have detailed above) Now the final point is that if you don't pay immediately you have NOT commited an offence. Offences are criminal law only - not civil. You don't seem to be making this distinction and it's a very important one to be aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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