decaff Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You are arguing a point I never made. This whole debate about driving off has NEVER contended that a drive off is legal, so I fail to understand why you are shouting in the wind about something we are all in agreement about. However, as you have found from the SOGA property passes at the point of dispensing. Because of this, and entirely because of this the offence of making off without payment was created BECAUSE it was in fact impossible to proscute for THEFT in these cases... Get that? They created a law in 1979 SPECIFICALLY because it was legal to drive off without paying because you cannot steal your own property. No one is doubting that making off without payment is illegal. What is being debated is if a garage can stop your car from leaving once you have indicated you will come back and pay (they cannot - no one can) and if you commit the offence of theft (you cannot for the reasons that I and others have detailed above) Now the final point is that if you don't pay immediately you have NOT commited an offence. Offences are criminal law only - not civil. You don't seem to be making this distinction and it's a very important one to be aware of. An offence is an action prohibited by statute so a civil offence could be breach of contract and a criminal offence could be theft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 An offence is a criminal action not a civil one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decaff Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 An offence is a criminal action not a civil one. No a crime is a criminal action an offence is an action prohibited by statute/law and could be either criminal or civil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 A crime is defined as something contrary to statue or Common Law, the actual actus reus is a criminal offence. There are no offences in civil law and they are not called it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decaff Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 something like breach of contract is an offence under civil law. The term offence may not be used but by its nature a breach of civil law is an offence in much the same way as a breach of criminal law is an offence because you have gone against a principle laid down by statute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 No it's not. It's a breach of contract. It's likley it could be a tort as well but it isn't a crime. The nature of a civil wrong is nothing like a criminal wrong. Civil law has different burden of proof, they are not against society and they can be prosecuted by the parties not by the state. They are not usually subject to a jury trial and you cannot be deprived of liberty. They are very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decaff Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 We're not debating the outcomes here because yes they are very different I am contending the definition of offence. You're confusing offence with crime. All crimes are offences but not all offences are crimes. An offence is any action which is prohibited by law. Crimes are usually called criminal offences and civil offences are usually called civil wrongs but by definition they are both breaches of the law and can be classed as offences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordChaverly Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Something similar happened to me recently. I had a puncture and immediately drove to the nearest tyre fitters to get a new tyre fitted. When the tyre had been fitted, I reached for my wallet and realised I didn't have it on me. I did have my mobile phone, so I left this at the fitters as security and went home to get my wallet. It all worked out OK in the end, but I do remember how quickly the tyre fitter's face changed (from pleasant to murderous) when I told him I hadn't any money on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think you will find that Blackstone will disagree with you there. An offence is a criminal act that constitutes both the actus reus and mens rea (excepting offences of strict libaility) A civil wrong, be that in tort, contract, will, probate etc. does not come under the definition above. If you think you have evidence contrary, please cite your references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decaff Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Not Blackstone again... Yes a criminal offence is an act that requires actus reus and mens rea and Civil "wrong" is the term used in UK law, I am not dssputing that. However my point still stands that an "offence" is any action prohibited by statute. Criminal offences are prohibited by criminal law and civil offences/wrongs are prohibited by civil law. Just because the majority of society use the phrase "civil wrong" does that mean there are no other phrases that can be used? A criminal "wrong" is a wrong against the state while a civil wrong is a wrong against another individual (contract, negligence etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.