UK History Question: Privatization vs Nationalization of Mining

[Wildcat]

Yes its true.

 

I would like to see evidence of that... I think you will find the costs were about the same.

 

In terms of economics it is nonsense to say that Thatcher's approach to the mines had anything to do with economics. The NCB declared that loud and clear when they announced the clossure of Cortonwood recently refurbished and producing cheaper coal than Hatfield which continued producing coal until a few years ago.

 

A comparison to make is with West Germany market cost per tonne £41, the UK £29. Government subsidies West Germany £14.85 per tonne, UK £1.62 per tonne.

 

West Germany didn't feel the need to trash its industry. Infact they still produce 135 million tonnes of coal a year... The Uk now imports 57 million tonnes of coal a year.

 

Had we looked after our industry we would not have squandered North Sea Oil.

 

Thatcher cost us billions of pounds, destroyed communities because she wanted to smash the unions, public services and the working class. The miner's were the barrier and with the Ridley plan they set out to smash them transforming pit villages into economic sink holes.

 

I recommend reading some of the articles by Dave Douglass on the strike, or the book you can pick up from him and the mining museum.

 

This for example gives a decent introduction:

http://www.minersadvice.co.uk/ourview_of_course_it_was_political.htm

[Rowan22]

I would like to see evidence of that... I think you will find the costs were about the same.

 

In terms of economics it is nonsense to say that Thatcher's approach to the mines had anything to do with economics. The NCB declared that loud and clear when they announced the clossure of Cortonwood recently refurbished and producing cheaper coal than Hatfield which continued producing coal until a few years ago.

 

A comparison to make is with West Germany market cost per tonne £41, the UK £29. Government subsidies West Germany £14.85 per tonne, UK £1.62 per tonne.

 

West Germany didn't feel the need to trash its industry. Infact they still produce 135 million tonnes of coal a year... The Uk now imports 57 million tonnes of coal a year.

 

Had we looked after our industry we would not have squandered North Sea Oil.

 

Thatcher cost us billions of pounds, destroyed communities because she wanted to smash the unions, public services and the working class. The miner's were the barrier and with the Ridley plan they set out to smash them transforming pit villages into economic sink holes.

 

I recommend reading some of the articles by Dave Douglass on the strike, or the book you can pick up from him and the mining museum.

 

This for example gives a decent introduction:

http://www.minersadvice.co.uk/ourview_of_course_it_was_political.htm

 

I totally agree good post.

[Radomu]

I would like to see evidence of that... I think you will find the costs were about the same.

 

In terms of economics it is nonsense to say that Thatcher's approach to the mines had anything to do with economics. The NCB declared that loud and clear when they announced the clossure of Cortonwood recently refurbished and producing cheaper coal than Hatfield which continued producing coal until a few years ago.

 

A comparison to make is with West Germany market cost per tonne £41, the UK £29. Government subsidies West Germany £14.85 per tonne, UK £1.62 per tonne.

 

West Germany didn't feel the need to trash its industry. Infact they still produce 135 million tonnes of coal a year... The Uk now imports 57 million tonnes of coal a year.

 

Had we looked after our industry we would not have squandered North Sea Oil.

 

Thatcher cost us billions of pounds, destroyed communities because she wanted to smash the unions, public services and the working class. The miner's were the barrier and with the Ridley plan they set out to smash them transforming pit villages into economic sink holes.

 

I recommend reading some of the articles by Dave Douglass on the strike, or the book you can pick up from him and the mining museum.

 

This for example gives a decent introduction:

http://www.minersadvice.co.uk/ourview_of_course_it_was_political.htm

 

Great revelations and a great post.

 

So the miner's strikes that occurred all over England in the 1970's were justified, or motivated by greater greed of the workers?

[Wildcat]

Great revelations and a great post.

 

So the miner's strikes that occurred all over England in the 1970's were justified, or motivated by greater greed of the workers?

 

Justified, their pay had fallen significantly behind their comparators.

[emma royd]

Justified, their pay had fallen significantly behind their comparators.

 

Which only priced British coal even further out of the market place. The point is that without illegal subsidies British coal couldn't compete in a free market. The miners wages were being largely paid for out of other people's taxes. In the circumstances expecting large pay rises wasn't smart regardless of where they pay scale lined up with other industries.

The worst thing about the whole episode is that subsidies to the mining industry simply increased costs to every other industry in the country, making them less competitive with overseas producers. It is probably a contributory factor to why many of our other industries found it was cheaper to move abroad.

[Wildcat]

Which only priced British coal even further out of the market place. The point is that without illegal subsidies British coal couldn't compete in a free market. The miners wages were being largely paid for out of other people's taxes. In the circumstances expecting large pay rises wasn't smart regardless of where they pay scale lined up with other industries.

The worst thing about the whole episode is that subsidies to the mining industry simply increased costs to every other industry in the country, making them less competitive with overseas producers. It is probably a contributory factor to why many of our other industries found it was cheaper to move abroad.

 

Uk barely subsidised the Coal industry at all, as I have already shown. £1.62 a tonne is nothing. After subsidies Uk coal was about 3/5ths the cost of German coal.

 

It may not have been the cheapest available, but it was locally produced and better value economically as a long term investment to meet the UK's energy needs and furthermore better value than paying unemployment benefits for coal miners and those from industries that depened on them to sit on the dole unemployed. There are also the hidden costs of how damage to communities devastated in such a way can be repaired.

 

We are now dependent on world prices having to import nearly all our fuel. The safety net of North Sea gas squandered in power stations where coal could have done the same job, reserving our oil resources for more effective and sensible use. That was the sensible plan for coal that Thatcher dumped in the bin for short term gain, revenge and to break the unions so she could implement the Neo-Liberal economic policies that shift pay from the poor to the richest. Since Thatcher the value of wages has declined from nearly 65% of GDP to 55% today. Over the same period, the rate of corporate profit has increased from 13% to 21%.

[emma royd]

Uk barely subsidised the Coal industry at all, as I have already shown. £1.62 a tonne is nothing. After subsidies Uk coal was about 3/5ths the cost of German coal.

 

It may not have been the cheapest available, but it was locally produced and better value economically as a long term investment to meet the UK's energy needs and furthermore better value than paying unemployment benefits for coal miners and those from industries that depened on them to sit on the dole unemployed. There are also the hidden costs of how damage to communities devastated in such a way can be repaired.

 

We are now dependent on world prices having to import nearly all our fuel. The safety net of North Sea gas squandered in power stations where coal could have done the same job, reserving our oil resources for more effective and sensible use. That was the sensible plan for coal that Thatcher dumped in the bin for short term gain, revenge and to break the unions so she could implement the Neo-Liberal economic policies that shift pay from the poor to the richest. Since Thatcher the value of wages has declined from nearly 65% of GDP to 55% today. Over the same period, the rate of corporate profit has increased from 13% to 21%.

 

You have shown nothing. All you have done is pull meaningless statistics out of thin air in a vain hope that it will back up your preposterous claims.

 

UK coal was always too expensive to compete in a world market and was heavily subsidised then and is still heavily subsidised now. The fact that subsidies are illegal is circumvented by simply calling the subsidy by a different name.

 

Here is the governments own website that outlines how it is done.

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-09-09b.14482.h

 

UK coal producers received around £162 million of operating aid during 2000-02 and £53 million of investment aid during 2003-08, but the Government are not currently paying any subsidy for coal production.

 

So UK coal is still receiving massive amounts of tax payers money to try to make it viable. Call it operating aid or investment aid if you like, but it still boils down to a massive subsidy.

[Wildcat]

You have shown nothing. All you have done is pull meaningless statistics out of thin air in a vain hope that it will back up your preposterous claims.

 

UK coal was always too expensive to compete in a world market and was heavily subsidised then and is still heavily subsidised now. The fact that subsidies are illegal is circumvented by simply calling the subsidy by a different name.

 

Here is the governments own website that outlines how it is done.

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-09-09b.14482.h

 

UK coal producers received around £162 million of operating aid during 2000-02 and £53 million of investment aid during 2003-08, but the Government are not currently paying any subsidy for coal production.

 

So UK coal is still receiving massive amounts of tax payers money to try to make it viable. Call it operating aid or investment aid if you like, but it still boils down to a massive subsidy.

 

Your figures are from a different period, at a point in time where mining operates in a very different environment, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Mine are from EEC figures quoted in a book I have at home for the period in question.

 

Here is the section:

 

"Britain was producing the cheapest deep mined coal in europe and amongst the cheapest in the world. It did this with the safest coal production anywhere in the world. EEC figures show that the NCB had the lowest production costs in europe, although some production costs were heavily subsidised."

 

1979 coal production costs per tonne:

Belgium £58

France £45

West Germany £41

UK £29

 

Direct aid to production in ECSC coal countries 1979

Belgium £207.7m £34.05 per tonne

France £334.1m £17.96 per tonne

West Germany £1,385.7m £14.85 per tonne

UK £195.4m £1.62 per tonne

 

Even John Redwood, was of the opinion the NCB was shutting down economic pits. Why he backed the workers buy out of Tower Colliery that went on to make profits for 13 more years, proving him right and the NCB wrong.

 

http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/2008/01/25/today-tower-colliery-closes-%e2%80%93-13-years-after-the-coal-board-pronounced-its-death/

[linus]

As much as I and many others hate Tony Blair, he requires a great deal of credit for completing the transition of the UK economy from manufacture-based to service-based that was occurring during the Thatcher-Major era.

 

Just wondering.. Why do you hate Tony Blair?

 

How have you been learning English? You have a very similar style to someone, and i'm just wondering why.

[emma royd]

Your figures are from a different period, at a point in time where mining operates in a very different environment, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Mine are from EEC figures quoted in a book I have at home for the period in question.

 

Here is the section:

 

 

 

 

 

You see you are still pulling totally meaningless figures out of thin air hoping to fool people. Cheapest deep mined coal... what's that got to do with anything?

 

Power stations burn coal. It doesn't matter whether it is deep mined or if it grows on trees. They buy the stuff that is best value. Plucking at straws just proves the point. Like you said " Deep mined coal". If you have to dig holes a mile underground and then try to extract the stuff it is always going to be more expensive than easily accessed deposits. The problem is that by paying over the market rate for deep mined coal you hamstring every other businessin the country.

I am assuming that you work in the public sector where such things as competing in the international market place are unknown to you.