UK History Question: Privatization vs Nationalization of Mining

[Mr Prime]

Oh yes he was

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/aug/25/arthur-scargill-expelled-num-finances

 

Arthur Scargill and allies 'expelled' from miners' union

 

This old article? He is still a member, just not a full member having retired.

[Scabbydog]

This old article? He is still a member, just not a full member having retired.

 

Hardly an old article it just reported Scargill being kicked out of the union 6 months ago.

 

Obviously newspapers have a strange way with words.

 

"Arthur Scargill was yesterday humiliated by being kicked out of the union he once led to defeat in an epic strike. The militant was stripped of membership rights in the National Union of Mineworkers in a move that appeared to mark the end of 57-year career in union politics"

 

When what they actually mean is he retired. I think not.

[Scabbydog]

One thing you have to give Scargill Credit for is his respect for democracy, once the miners had made their decision he defended it

 

Its very odd then that the Union of Democratic Mineworkers was set up as a breakaway union when Scargill wouldn't allow the NUM a vote on strike action.

[Mr Prime]

Its very odd then that the Union of Democratic Mineworkers was set up as a breakaway union when Scargill wouldn't allow the NUM a vote on strike action.

 

1. There is an ongoing handbag spat in the NUM but you notice even the newspaper you take as gospel had inverted commas round the word retired?

 

2. If you knew about the strike you'd know the big NUM Executive meeting at Sheffield HQ near the start of the strike voted against a ballot. Scargill being President did not have to use his vote. Yes he would have been against a ballot but he never had to go on written record either way.

 

3. When they met at the TUC nearly a year later the vote went the other way and Scargill went with it. Had he been the demagogue you imagine that would not have been the case. He'd have gone over the heads of the other leaders and called on the rank and file to follow him.

 

4. If you knew about Notts you'd know about their attitude to the national ballot on incentive pay in the late 70's. I suggest you read up on it, you will then find them calling themselves democratic at odds with their reputation. There were also strikebreakers in Notts in the 1972/74 strikes even when the full national ballot was in operation.

[Scabbydog]

1. There is an ongoing handbag spat in the NUM but you notice even the newspaper you take as gospel had inverted commas round the word retired?

 

2. If you knew about the strike you'd know the big NUM Executive meeting at Sheffield HQ near the start of the strike voted against a ballot. Scargill being President did not have to use his vote. Yes he would have been against a ballot but he never had to go on written record either way.

 

3. When they met at the TUC nearly a year later the vote went the other way and Scargill went with it. Had he been the demagogue you imagine that would not have been the case. He'd have gone over the heads of the other leaders and called on the rank and file to follow him.

 

4. If you knew about Notts you'd know about their attitude to the national ballot on incentive pay in the late 70's. I suggest you read up on it, you will then find them calling themselves democratic at odds with their reputation. There were also strikebreakers in Notts in the 1972/74 strikes even when the full national ballot was in operation.

 

 

I take nothing as gospel including what you post. However when you find article after article all saying the same thing I tend to start thinking their is an element of truth behind them. Endless sources say Scargill was kicked out of the NUM. They also say the UDMW broke away from the NUM because of Scargill's refusal to hold a strike ballot. They also say that the lack of strike ballot was the main reason why the strike lacked support from people like Kinnock. So you will excuse me for taking your staements that Scargill retired from the union with a very large pinch of salt. If you want me to take your posting seriously you could try posting something with a ring of truth to it.

[Mr Prime]

Everything I have said is the truth and you will find it echoed in all serious books about the strike I guarantee you. Scargill retired as President in 2002 and has only been an honorary or background member ever since. The Guardian article says Scargill has become a different, lesser type of member hence the inverted commas:

 

"Scargill could remain honorary president, or could become a life member, honorary member or retired member, but could not be a full financial member and had lost his voting rights."

 

As it happens I don't care about current NUM handbags so if it pleases you to think the entire strike in 1984/5 was wrong on account of what happened last year in a Barnsley office then good for you.

 

Kinnock said "I'd be on strike but asking for a ballot" and there are photos of him on miners demo's including one shaking Scargill's hand as well as his visit to Welsh picket lines. The issue was that Kinnock's support was lukewarm.

 

I have already explained that the question of a ballot was not entirely down to Scargill. If you wish to ignore that and assume the entire NUM executive were mindless puppets then again, good for you.

 

Again I suggest you do some research into the behaviour of the Notts NUM in the 70's. Your argument seems to hinge on them and their leadership being noble and principled men. Do some learning and you'll find that hinge is gone. Look up the incentive scheme.