Gaddafi's last stand

[Bassman62]

(i) Mubarak certainly did in Egypt for a week or two and (ii) I only mentioned the "no-fly-zone" by way of example: basically, just 'interventionism'.

 

Coin it any way you like: there's no oil or natural resources worth fretting about in Tunisia or Egypt

Doesn't Tunisia have some natural Gas deposits?

[johncocker]

That's a good point and seems to be the case in some of the poorer countries without a proper domestic infrastructure, such as Yemen.

 

But looking elsewhere in the Middle East, let's not forget Iran tried to be a democracy back in the 1950s when Mossadegh tried to nationalise the oil industry... but the CIA didn't like the idea of that and overthrew him in a bloody coup within a few years. The hated Shah of Iran was installed and ruled the country for a couple of decades before he was in turn overthrown by the hardline clerics in the late 1970s.

 

Middle East countries can become democracies. But it will take time, and I'm talking in terms of years and decades, rather than weeks or months. And a lot depends on whether Western countries will take the short term view and decide to invade again.

 

But democracy in the Middle East can happen.

 

x

 

might be better if Gaddafi beats the opposition. No more ruined countries like Iraq, Somalia or Afghanistan. Western democracy is a bad idea in "developing" countries.

[Bassman62]

That's a good point and seems to be the case in some of the poorer countries without a proper domestic infrastructure, such as Yemen.

 

But looking elsewhere in the Middle East, let's not forget Iran tried to be a democracy back in the 1950s when Mossadegh tried to nationalise the oil industry... but the CIA didn't like the idea of that and overthrew him in a bloody coup within a few years. The hated Shah of Iran was installed and ruled the country for a couple of decades before he was in turn overthrown by the hardline clerics in the late 1970s.

 

Middle East countries can become democracies. But it will take time, and I'm talking in terms of years and decades, rather than weeks or months. And a lot depends on whether Western countries will take the short term view and decide to invade again.

 

But democracy in the Middle East can happen.

 

x

It's a time element you can't skip 8 centuries of evolution just like that, we get the same in the ex mining villages like Eckington, Stavely etc, it is still going to take them time to become as civilised as Dronfield.

[caparo]

might be better if Gaddafi beats the opposition. No more ruined countries like Iraq, Somalia or Afghanistan. Western democracy is a bad idea in "developing" countries.

 

Don't be silly. Gaddafi can't win. It isn't an option in the OP.:huh:

[Jason Bourne]

And Nick and Dave are desperate to get their greedy hands on Libya's oil reserves...

 

You got that half right - Nick's happy just to get his mug in the news, seeing as his public exposure is currently zero.

 

Let's face it, if he wasn't the Hallam MP, nobody on here would mention his name

 

x

[Harleyman]

That's a good point and seems to be the case in some of the poorer countries without a proper domestic infrastructure, such as Yemen.

 

But looking elsewhere in the Middle East, let's not forget Iran tried to be a democracy back in the 1950s when Mossadegh tried to nationalise the oil industry... but the CIA didn't like the idea of that and overthrew him in a bloody coup within a few years. The hated Shah of Iran was installed and ruled the country for a couple of decades before he was in turn overthrown by the hardline clerics in the late 1970s.

 

Middle East countries can become democracies. But it will take time, and I'm talking in terms of years and decades, rather than weeks or months. And a lot depends on whether Western countries will take the short term view and decide to invade again.

 

 

But democracy in the Middle East can happen.

 

x

 

 

 

Let's not coveniently forget other facts eh? A lot of what went on in Mossadeghs time concerned his nationalisation of the British owned Anglo/Iranian Oil Company, a forerunner of BP. The British had owned and run Iran's oil production for years and like the Suez Canal in Egypt had come to believe that it was written in stone that these foreign possessions were theirs for perpetuity.

After the nationalisation of Anglo/Iranian Winston Churchill climbed on his war horse and accused Mossadegh of being a Commie or having Commie sympathies. Whether that was true or not I dont know but anyway he managed to get Eisenhower to use the CIA to overthrow Mossadegh.

 

It's all there if you look up Mohammad Mossadegh on the Wikipedia encylopedia. There were more players than just the CIA in that little caper

[johncocker]

Don't be silly. Gaddafi can't win. It isn't an option in the OP.:huh:

 

 

 

 

most defections to this point have been along tribal lines- not something entirely unexpected. The fact is that there's simply no unitary, disciplined military force in Libya today with the ablity to quickly push Gaddafi aside...

 

And Col Gaddafi has clearly been planning for this eventuality for decades... all the pieces are in place: support now comes from fiercely loyal militias and armed "revolutionary committees" who are -as the last line of defense- sworn to Gaddafi and/or his sons personally, as well as co-opted tribes and black African mercenaries. All these parties have a large personal stake in the outcome and are willing to kill almost anyone to protect it. Contrary to popular opinion, this motivation also applies to the foreign fighters... there's surely little good waiting for them back in Chad. plus............

 

At the vanguard of pro-Gaddafi forces is 5th son Khamis Gaddafi and his crack special forces unit, one that's already played a large part in putting down unrest in the capitol- and in the most ruthless fashion imaginable. Khamis Gaddafi is cut from a different cloth from his international playboy brothers, was trained at a top Russian military academy, and is the one who hired the black African mercenaries who really don't mind shooting Libyans... unlike the the army regulars. Loyalist forces have already shown they'll waste whoever they need to to keep Gaddafi in power.

 

 

dont you be stupid of course its an option:loopy:

[caparo]

dont you be stupid of course its an option:loopy:

 

Its clearly the option you've selected for yourself.

 

I'd selected irony, as the OP clearly hadn't considered Gadaffi staying in power as an option.

[craigmason]

I do wish the un would impose a no fly ban as while the are talking about it innocent civilians are getting bombed

[puisseguin]

I do wish the un would impose a no fly ban as while the are talking about it innocent civilians are getting bombed

 

I don't see what it's got to do with the UN. There are groups trying to take over a sovereign nation. Why should anyone intervene to stop the government taking action to prevent it? Should the UN step in to enforce a no fly zone in Iraq or Afghanistan?