Waldo Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Then you have clearly not understood it sir. If you had then there would not have been the expression of worry unless of course that is your stock line for entry into a thread that has run way past my bed time:) There was no expression of worry; at least, not on my part. I said, "I think that's a worry for many people of a non-religious inclination". I don't have any stock lines! Never mind, stock lines that I only use past your bed time (and in any case, how would I know when that is?). It was a genuine question, still is. If you want to share your insights re: the points I raised, please feel free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 You're obviously as tired as I am. Calm down. I don't know which sites you are referring to. I have one site I use on religious threads and it is this one http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ I do find your constant snide implications that I am following a Islamaphobic agenda quite tiresome and insulting. Hey I am only going by the having seen the same old lines being used that are pushed by some extremist website dedicated to ant-Islam. If you don't use them I apologise for the inference but the similarity is uncanny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I think that's a good point. How do the muslims here, reconcile, on the one hand, blind acceptance of the koran, and on the other, trusting your own gut-instinct, and intuition, to inform you what's right and wrong? I think that's a worry for many people of a non-religious inclination; is people having a tendency to throw self-trust, and rationality out of the window, to follow stuff written (in a now out-of-date) book. what makes you think gut instinct is right? In Islam there are laws for example death penalty for the rapist. Some will say this is Barbaric but wait until it's their mother sister or wife who gets raped then they will change their mind. In Islam alcohol is banned, some will say this is against freedom of choice but don't have the same view on Heroin and Cocain. Is this not hypocracy? Look at all the crime and violence that the drug of alcohol causes in societies and all the police resources that have to be allocated to deal with it. Not to mention the strain on the NHS due to alcohol related desease and deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 There was no expression of worry; at least, not on my part. I said, "I think that's a worry for many people of a non-religious inclination". I don't have any stock lines! Never mind, stock lines that I only use past your bed time (and in any case, how would I know when that is?). It was a genuine question, still is. If you want to share your insights re: the points I raised, please feel free. I think if you have indeed read the thread then most answers should be therein. Anyway gents thank you for the discussion I must leave it at that so Good Night all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Hey I am only going by the having seen the same old lines being used that are pushed by some extremist website dedicated to ant-Islam. If you don't use them I apologise for the inference but the similarity is uncanny. So you apologise, but then imply that I'm lying. If you don't believe me, don't apologise. If you do believe me, don't undermine your apology with a dig. Maybe the 'same old lines' are are genuine concern of non-Muslims, perhaps manipulated by the media? Has that occurred to you? You can't deny there is a lot of nasty stuff in the Koran. Just look at the 'intolerance' list on the website I posted. It's nearly as long as the list in the bible ... What you fail to grasp is that I say these things to Christians too, and that I don't think all Muslims are deranged killers-in-waiting. I do think - with justification - that the Koran and the bible provide ample justification for people to behave that way if they wish to find it. It seems that the oppression of Muslim people over the centuries had led some Muslims to do just that. It's natural that people should be wary of that, surely? That's not to condone the oppression or anything. That wasn't me. I just want my kids to grow up where people are excellent to one another, and it seems that these holy books we keep mentioning are a massive obstacle to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 So you apologise, but then imply that I'm lying. If you don't believe me, don't apologise. If you do believe me, don't undermine your apology with a dig. Maybe the 'same old lines' are are genuine concern of non-Muslims, perhaps manipulated by the media? Has that occurred to you? You can't deny there is a lot of nasty stuff in the Koran. Just look at the 'intolerance' list on the website I posted. It's nearly as long as the list in the bible ... What you fail to grasp is that I say these things to Christians too, and that I don't think all Muslims are deranged killers-in-waiting. I do think - with justification - that the Koran and the bible provide ample justification for people to behave that way if they wish to find it. It seems that the oppression of Muslim people over the centuries had led some Muslims to do just that. It's natural that people should be wary of that, surely? That's not to condone the oppression or anything. That wasn't me. I just want my kids to grow up where people are excellent to one another, and it seems that these holy books we keep mentioning are a massive obstacle to that. My guess from your arguments is that you are atheist and against religion in general and not just Islam. Still there is no nasty stuff in the Quran you just seem to be picking out quotes without reading the whole Quran and the context of the versus. My advice to you is sit down and read the Quran properly not cut and paste from websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldo Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 what makes you think gut instinct is right I think we should differentiate between base-instinct; and intuition. I am referring to intuition; self-trust. Rather than giving free reign to base animal instinct (that said, I'm not convinced it is entirely healthy to do away with all animality; but that's perhaps the subject for another thread). So, my point is one of self-trust (heart felt inner guidance), vs, trust in your given tradition. Is there a conflict there? If so, in such situations how do you resolve this conflict? Do you do away with self-trust? In Islam alcohol is banned, some will say this is against freedom of choice but don't have the same view on Heroin and Cocain. Is this not hypocracy? Look at all the crime and violence that the drug of alcohol causes in societies and all the police resources that have to be allocated to deal with it. Not to mention the strain on the NHS due to alcohol related desease and deaths. I don't bother with drugs or alcohol (well, maybe 1/2 pint lager per month); but my feeling is people should be informed of the facts, re: effects of consumption, and be at liberty to choose for themselves. I think it's harmful, and will naturally back-fire in subtle ways, when the state forces or restricts liberty of the individual (which is a form of violence, that the state visits upon the individual; though in many cases, the state says it's for your own good; which is invariably a lie, it's about control and power). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldo Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I think if you have indeed read the thread then most answers should be therein. Anyway gents thank you for the discussion I must leave it at that so Good Night all. You're welcome! Thanks also. Good night. Well, I'm off too; night all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 My guess from your arguments is that you are atheist and against religion in general and not just Islam. Still there is no nasty stuff in the Quran you just seem to be picking out quotes without reading the whole Quran and the context of the versus. My advice to you is sit down and read the Quran properly not cut and paste from websites. Indeed I am an atheist. Or at least I am very strongly agnostic. I don't rule anything out - I have an open mind - but as of yet I see absolutely no evidence to suggest there is a god. I am opposed to religions as they close people's minds. They say that they are right and that everyone else is wrong, even when what is contained in their texts needs to be 'contextualised' to make it acceptable. It closes down minds to the extent that followers will say things such as there is no nasty stuff in the Quran When it is perfectly clear that this is not true. As you don't like me to cut and paste, and as to do so would make this post far, far too long, you can click here to see a list of the intollerant bits in the Quran, and click here to see a list of the bits of cruelty and violence in the Koran. They're quite long lists, and not ones you can explain away by saying one has to look at context. When something is repeated over and over, it's clear that the person writing it meant it. For completeness, and so you can't claim I am being Islamaphobic, here is the corresponding lists of nastiness in the bible - intolerance and cruelty. Both books are full of unpleasantness. Sure, both books also have nice bits. I'm not denying that. But there is plenty of nastiness there if you want to look for it. Most right thinking Christians and Muslims 'contextualise' these bits until they mean something else, of course - but some don't. I guess those that shot the Christian minister and continue to persecute non-Muslims don't bother with context in much the same way that the Christians of the middle ages didn't and nor do 'right-wing' modern Christians. For reference and comparison purposes, here are the (much shorter) lists of 'good' bits in the Quaran and the bible. What is interesting to me is that you say I'm an atheist like it's a bad thing. Let's say that in the course of the millions of years humans have existed there have been 10,00 gods that people have worshipped - from the tree gods to the norse gods to the pagan gods to the sun gods and so on. Ten thousand doesn't seem an unreasonable number - and each one was, in it's time, worshipped and reveered as you worship and revere your God. You reject 99.99% of those gods. I reject just 0.01% more of them. It's not so big a difference really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treatment Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 International Aid is for greasing palms, not helping ordinary folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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