newboy2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 you are right about most of these countries being corrupt but can you name the biggest drugs exporting country in that region and who controls it? pakistan? no wait afganistan grow it. pakistan ship it, iran fund the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Being a follower of any faith 'should' be about doing whatever your God wants. We are simply debating what it is God wants, because rest assured, what God wants, God gets. I think both the bible and the Koran agree on that. The Koran doesn't say Muslims are superior because of 'piety and good deeds' any more than the bible says Christians are superior because of 'piety and good deeds' or 'loving one another as Jesus loved them' Both books say that believers are superior because they believe. Good deeds count for nothing if you don't believe. Piety is worthless without belief. It's clear what is important. A 'bad' believer is better than a 'good' non believer. The Quran doesn't concentrate so much on superiority in the racist sense you are suggesting. It concentrates much more on the reward of paradise for the one who believes and does good deeds and the punishment of hell for the one who dis believes and does evil deeds. I think the point here to grasp is that you have to believe in order to be a truly righteous person. In Islam believing in ones creater and obeying ones creater is central to being a good human being on this earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newboy2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 The Quran doesn't concentrate so much on superiority in the racist sense you are suggesting. It concentrates much more on the reward of paradise for the one who believes and does good deeds and the punishment of hell for the one who dis believes and does evil deeds. I think the point here to grasp is that you have to believe in order to be a truly righteous person. In Islam believing in ones creater and obeying ones creater is central to being a good human being on this earth. So why kill this man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 The Quran doesn't concentrate so much on superiority in the racist sense you are suggesting. It concentrates much more on the reward of paradise for the one who believes and does good deeds and the punishment of hell for the one who dis believes and does evil deeds. I'm not suggesting that Islam teaches that believers are superior in a racist sense, and have no idea where you got that idea from. It teaches that believers are superior because there are many, many passages that make it clear that believers will get eternal life and non-believers will get eternal punishment: Allah thinks believers are better. That's not to mention the fact that killing non-believers is condoned and so on. Non believers are treated differently in the Quaran, and by differently I mean worse. I think the point here to grasp is that you have to believe in order to be a truly righteous person. In Islam believing in ones creater and obeying ones creater is central to being a good human being on this earth. Do you really think you cannot be acceptably moral and fair without belief? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 But what if I live in a society that doesn't want Islam establishing, or believes that it will not be an improvement, but nonetheless an Islamic army invaded it? I suppose my choice would be to accept Islam (which isn't an option, as I don't believe in God) or to fight back - in which case I would become 'non-civilian' and get killed. Great. So the teaching is not to kill civilians, but to invade other lands and spread Islam. And if anyone fights back, it's fine to kill them. That seems to be what you are saying. Isn't this going back to my earlier point about all ideologies doing this and who does it depends on who has got the most power at the time. In this day and age it is Western nations who have the most power and in the future it is most likley to be China. I doubt that you will be facing invasion by a Muslim army in your life time. The last Islamic Empire capable of invading other nations was the Ottoman Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwrig Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 The Quran doesn't concentrate so much on superiority in the racist sense you are suggesting. It concentrates much more on the reward of paradise for the one who believes and does good deeds and the punishment of hell for the one who dis believes and does evil deeds. I think the point here to grasp is that you have to believe in order to be a truly righteous person. In Islam believing in ones creater and obeying ones creater is central to being a good human being on this earth. This all sounds a bit complacent to me. Once you've decided that you are a "truly righteous person", do you not think that your god might get a little ticked off by people running round shooting people who don't support blasphemy laws? I would have thought that the "truly righteous" people would be doing all they could to stop this if they want their place in paradise. I don't see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I'm not suggesting that Islam teaches that believers are superior in a racist sense, and have no idea where you got that idea from. It teaches that believers are superior because there are many, many passages that make it clear that believers will get eternal life and non-believers will get eternal punishment: Allah thinks believers are better. That's not to mention the fact that killing non-believers is condoned and so on. Non believers are treated differently in the Quaran, and by differently I mean worse. Do you really think you cannot be acceptably moral and fair without belief? Really? Well you are not a Muslim which is why you don't believe that belief and obediance to the creater leads to Paradise. Instead you believe that Atheism is right. Why should you have the right to believe Atheism is right but Muslims not have the right to believe Islam is right and you are wrong? There are good people of all faiths and no faith however in Islam belief and obediance to God is central to being good. It is what gets rid of selfishness by allowing one to do good deeds for a higher reward in the next life. For an Atheist what is the incentive to be good or do good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 This all sounds a bit complacent to me. Once you've decided that you are a "truly righteous person", do you not think that your god might get a little ticked off by people running round shooting people who don't support blasphemy laws? I would have thought that the "truly righteous" people would be doing all they could to stop this if they want their place in paradise. I don't see that happening. The truly righteous people in Pakistan are no where to be seen in the corrupt puppet government who are making their own people suffer while they line their pockets. What Pakistan needs is a revolution similar to those going on in the Middle East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 For an Atheist what is the incentive to be good or do good? I'll reply more later - busy now - but do you need an incentive to be nice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I think we should differentiate between base-instinct; and intuition. I am referring to intuition; self-trust. Rather than giving free reign to base animal instinct (that said, I'm not convinced it is entirely healthy to do away with all animality; but that's perhaps the subject for another thread). So, my point is one of self-trust (heart felt inner guidance), vs, trust in your given tradition. Is there a conflict there? If so, in such situations how do you resolve this conflict? Do you do away with self-trust? I don't bother with drugs or alcohol (well, maybe 1/2 pint lager per month); but my feeling is people should be informed of the facts, re: effects of consumption, and be at liberty to choose for themselves. I think it's harmful, and will naturally back-fire in subtle ways, when the state forces or restricts liberty of the individual (which is a form of violence, that the state visits upon the individual; though in many cases, the state says it's for your own good; which is invariably a lie, it's about control and power). so you don't believe in absolute freedom? Most who talk about freedom for all stop short of calling for absolute freedom. Absolute freedom results in complete anarchy. The difference between Secularism and Islam is that in Secularism a human being makes the laws based on their own desires and in Islam the laws are taken directly from the Quran. If people should be at liberty to choose for themselves shouldn't they also be at liberty to choose to take Cocain or Heroin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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