markwrig Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 The truly righteous people in Pakistan are no where to be seen in the corrupt puppet government who are making their own people suffer while they line their pockets. What Pakistan needs is a revolution similar to those going on in the Middle East. So what are the "righteous people" in Pakistan actually doing? Seems that it was a Christian who had the guts to try and change things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I'll reply more later - busy now - but do you need an incentive to be nice? would you go to work for free? being nice in the sense of saying hi how are you and smiling is easy. Feeding the poor, not taking drugs, not cheating on your wife or husband, not swearing, having patience, not being greedy or selfish is a lot harder. Why do good deeds if there's no incentive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 So what are the "righteous people" in Pakistan actually doing? Seems that it was a Christian who had the guts to try and change things. he was not changing things for the people of Pakistan in the sense of stamping out corruption and trying to establish a government that serves the interests of its own people. There is a lot of anger in Pakistan at the continuing rise in price of basic goods required for survival. For a poor person life in Pakistan has become unbearable while the Politicians continue to rob the country. People are also angry at the cold blooded murder of two Paistani civilians by American agent Raymond Davis. The puppet Pakistani government wanted to release him back to America but the supreme court ruled that he will face trial in Pakistan. There is a lot of anger at the constant American drone strikes on Pakistan which have killed hundreds of innocent people and the Pakistani puppet governments defening silence on the issue. The Christian politician was not doing anything to address these issues but was part and parcel of the corrupt puppet government. He only wanted to change the blasphomy laws to advance his own Christian agenda. Most people in Pakistan are Muslim and therefore are against any change to the blasphomy law. What they are concerned about is what I have mentioned in the above paragraphs. The righteous people in Pakistan are taking to the streets and protesting but so far have not achieved much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newboy2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 In pakistan a Christian person is killed by the followers of Islam. Shocker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 would you go to work for free? being nice in the sense of saying hi how are you and smiling is easy. Feeding the poor, not taking drugs, not cheating on your wife or husband, not swearing, having patience, not being greedy or selfish is a lot harder. Why do good deeds if there's no incentive? The above is in response to my questioning your apparent assertion that you believe that only believers - by which I presume you mean Muslims - can be righteous. Aside from the fact that this supports my earlier point that Islam teaches that it's followers are superior to everyone else (as Christianity does with its followers), it is patently untrue. You list of 'things that are hard' is: feeding the poor not taking drugs not cheating on your partner not swearing having patience not being greedy not being selfish You imply that one can only do these things is one is a believer - presumably in your God. And yet there are lots of people doing exactly those things that don't believe in your God, and a lot of people who do believe in your God who are not doing them. How do you explain this? For example, I've never taken non-medicinal drugs, never cheated on a partner, and I am not particularly greedy or selfish - and I'm an atheist. I have done volunteer work in the past when I had spare time, so I suppose you could say I have worked for nothing. I don't work for nothing all the time as to do so would leave me and my family homeless and starving - the money I get in exchange for my labour pays for our roof and food. I admit that I swear on occasion, when I feel it is appropriate. For example I cut the end of my thumb with the cheese knife earlier, and I'm sure it hurt less because I swore If I could see that there was any harm in 'using words to communicate and express oneself' I expect I wouldn't swear. I find this notion that somehow we are all mindless savages without God - and it is only by his grace that we can somehow function as moral beings - to be hateful. Do you really have such a low opinion of yourself that you imagine that without God you'd be a self-obsessed, potty mouthed, philandering crack addict? Are you really only nice to people because you imagine you will be rewarded for it? I am nice to people because to do so makes this world on which we all live a nicer place. What comes around goes around. I'm not nice out of fear, or for selfish reasons to do with being 'incentivised'. I'm nice because it's the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldo Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 so you don't believe in absolute freedom? Most who talk about freedom for all stop short of calling for absolute freedom. Absolute freedom results in complete anarchy. What is 'believe'?.. Within a social context; then yes, people being absolutely free to do whatever they want, may result in anarchy. I imagine it depends a lot, on how 'enlightened' or corrupt people are. However, if people are sufficiently mature, decent, self-aware and conscientious; then perhaps it wouldn't result in anarchy? Some laws and restrictions can be a good thing though. The difference between Secularism and Islam is that in Secularism a human being makes the laws based on their own desires and in Islam the laws are taken directly from the Quran. You mean like their own desires to live in a free and safe world? Have you been conditioned to believe that any natural human desire, is automatically bad, negative, harmful? If people should be at liberty to choose for themselves shouldn't they also be at liberty to choose to take Cocain or Heroin? What do you think? My own thoughts, are that people should be allowed to do what they will, so long as it's not hurting others. That includes, the freedom to take Cocaine or Heroin (or worse), so long as they're not damaging others in the process. Of course, when considering the harm to others, we need to examine the bigger picture; and with the 2 specific examples you give, there may be issues relating to money going to organised crime, encouraging burglary to feed habits etc; all of which need to be considered when assessing the harm to others. In general principle though; I believe less state control, more education, and fostering self-trust within people. Of course, just like freedom; self-trust isn't something you can give people, it's something people have to take for themselves. All the best to you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 The above is in response to my questioning your apparent assertion that you believe that only believers - by which I presume you mean Muslims - can be righteous. Aside from the fact that this supports my earlier point that Islam teaches that it's followers are superior to everyone else (as Christianity does with its followers), it is patently untrue. You list of 'things that are hard' is: feeding the poor not taking drugs not cheating on your partner not swearing having patience not being greedy not being selfish You imply that one can only do these things is one is a believer - presumably in your God. And yet there are lots of people doing exactly those things that don't believe in your God, and a lot of people who do believe in your God who are not doing them. How do you explain this? For example, I've never taken non-medicinal drugs, never cheated on a partner, and I am not particularly greedy or selfish - and I'm an atheist. I have done volunteer work in the past when I had spare time, so I suppose you could say I have worked for nothing. I don't work for nothing all the time as to do so would leave me and my family homeless and starving - the money I get in exchange for my labour pays for our roof and food. I admit that I swear on occasion, when I feel it is appropriate. For example I cut the end of my thumb with the cheese knife earlier, and I'm sure it hurt less because I swore If I could see that there was any harm in 'using words to communicate and express oneself' I expect I wouldn't swear. I find this notion that somehow we are all mindless savages without God - and it is only by his grace that we can somehow function as moral beings - to be hateful. Do you really have such a low opinion of yourself that you imagine that without God you'd be a self-obsessed, potty mouthed, philandering crack addict? Are you really only nice to people because you imagine you will be rewarded for it? I am nice to people because to do so makes this world on which we all live a nicer place. What comes around goes around. I'm not nice out of fear, or for selfish reasons to do with being 'incentivised'. I'm nice because it's the right thing to do. A classic straw-man argument. Bounce compared two ways of being nice and you have assumed or set straw-man of your own liking and then proceeded to knock it down. Wouldn't it have been better to reply to or better still understand what the other guy is saying rather than argue against points you introduce yourself? No point in wasting another perfectly good night on you:roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 would you go to work for free? being nice in the sense of saying hi how are you and smiling is easy. Feeding the poor, not taking drugs, not cheating on your wife or husband, not swearing, having patience, not being greedy or selfish is a lot harder. Why do good deeds if there's no incentive? A classic straw-man argument. Bounce compared two ways of being nice and you have assumed or set straw-man of your own liking and then proceeded to knock it down. Wouldn't it have been better to reply to or better still understand what the other guy is saying rather than argue against points you introduce yourself? No point in wasting another perfectly good night on you:roll: Bounce compared two ways of his/her own creation - 'easy nice' and 'hard nice' - the implication being that the 'hard nice' ones were easier if you believed in Allah. I don't agree with that - that's my point. The 'hard nice' things aren't really hard, are they? It's not hard to not to take drugs, or to be faithful, or to just be nice to other people. I manage it quite well without a God to tell me to do it. The implication in Bounce's post was that, without God we are all savages who are not nice to each other,and we need an incentive to be nice. This is demonstrably not true. Where was the straw man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 The implication in Bounce's post was that, without God we are all savages who are not nice to each other,and we need an incentive to be nice. This is demonstrably not true. Where was the straw man? Except he wasn't saying any of those things but answering your question rhetorically 'but do you need an incentive to be nice?' Clearly he demonstrated there are incentives in religion to be nice, so what is the difficulty in understanding that? You can make up your own version of my question and write a book as a reply, I'm off to bed so have a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwrig Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 would you go to work for free? being nice in the sense of saying hi how are you and smiling is easy. Feeding the poor, not taking drugs, not cheating on your wife or husband, not swearing, having patience, not being greedy or selfish is a lot harder. Why do good deeds if there's no incentive? Oh dear. This is a very sad outlook on life. Such an attitude will never realise enlightenment and paradise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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