Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 So, Islam teaches you to fight everyone who isn't a Muslim? No, you've confused me now. Help? Islam doesn't teach Muslims to wage war on civilian populations. Muslim armys can fight with Non Muslim armys in a defensive or offensive war. Such wars were faught after careful consideration and discussion and the main aim of the war was never the massacre of non Muslim civilians. The aim was one of two either to defend Islam and the Muslims who were under attack from an invading army or to invade another land to establish Islam within the society with the aim of improving the society not massacaring its civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Yes the Quran teaches Muslims that they are superior but not simply for growing a beard and saying I'm a Muslim. The Quran teaches superiority by actions and deeds. If we look at Britain a doctor is seen as superior to a dope smoking chav on the dole. Superiority based on piety and good deeds which is what being Muslim should be about. I know in modern day Britain this is not neccessarily the case but don't judge a car by it's driver if you get the point. Being a follower of any faith 'should' be about doing whatever your God wants. We are simply debating what it is God wants, because rest assured, what God wants, God gets. I think both the bible and the Koran agree on that. The Koran doesn't say Muslims are superior because of 'piety and good deeds' any more than the bible says Christians are superior because of 'piety and good deeds' or 'loving one another as Jesus loved them' Both books say that believers are superior because they believe. Good deeds count for nothing if you don't believe. Piety is worthless without belief. It's clear what is important. A 'bad' believer is better than a 'good' non believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Islam teaches Muslim armys to fight armys of opposing ideologies so that Islam reigns supreme. So, Islam teaches you to fight everyone who isn't a Muslim? (my bold)That is deliberate misrepresentation sir:roll: Is it? I'm not a Muslim. You seem to think I have an ideology - ergo I have an opposing ideology in this black and white world you are creating. It's only the word 'army' that we're debating. That wouldn't feel like much protection to me if I were living in a state run by people who followed the teaching Bounce mentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Islam doesn't teach Muslims to wage war on civilian populations. Muslim armys can fight with Non Muslim armys in a defensive or offensive war. Such wars were faught after careful consideration and discussion and the main aim of the war was never the massacre of non Muslim civilians. The aim was one of two either to defend Islam and the Muslims who were under attack from an invading army or to invade another land to establish Islam within the society with the aim of improving the society not massacaring its civilians. But what if I live in a society that doesn't want Islam establishing, or believes that it will not be an improvement, but nonetheless an Islamic army invaded it? I suppose my choice would be to accept Islam (which isn't an option, as I don't believe in God) or to fight back - in which case I would become 'non-civilian' and get killed. Great. So the teaching is not to kill civilians, but to invade other lands and spread Islam. And if anyone fights back, it's fine to kill them. That seems to be what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Is it? I'm not a Muslim. You seem to think I have an ideology - ergo I have an opposing ideology in this black and white world you are creating. It's only the word 'army' that we're debating. That wouldn't feel like much protection to me if I were living in a state run by people who followed the teaching Bounce mentions. He also mentioned defense which you seem to have conveniently ignored. Fighting the opposing army doesn't then translate to fighting everyone who isn't Muslim:roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Being a follower of any faith 'should' be about doing whatever your God wants. We are simply debating what it is God wants, because rest assured, what God wants, God gets. I think both the bible and the Koran agree on that. The Koran doesn't say Muslims are superior because of 'piety and good deeds' any more than the bible says Christians are superior because of 'piety and good deeds' or 'loving one another as Jesus loved them' Both books say that believers are superior because they believe. Good deeds count for nothing if you don't believe. Piety is worthless without belief. It's clear what is important. A 'bad' believer is better than a 'good' non believer. Christianity is regarded as part of Islam and it is true that conformity is expected by Muslims to the rules of Islam but then again that is no different to conformity to the rules any society. Islam is a communal based way of life for the benefit of the whole community rather than the misguided misconception of individual's right to do as they please. Piety and self improvement is a large part of being a Muslim rather than your portrayal lust for killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bounce Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Is it? I'm not a Muslim. You seem to think I have an ideology - ergo I have an opposing ideology in this black and white world you are creating. It's only the word 'army' that we're debating. That wouldn't feel like much protection to me if I were living in a state run by people who followed the teaching Bounce mentions. you're not really understanding the point, Islam in the political sense is not practiced by individuals. For example an individual cannot declare a military Jihad (struggle). In an Islamic state the people elect a Khalif who rules by the Quran if he deviates the people have the right to remove him. The Khalif or Ameer only takes the decision to go to war after careful cosnideration and discussion. The last Islamic state was the Ottoman Empire in Turkey and was taken by force in 1924 by the British who then imposed secularism on Turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Islam doesn't teach Muslims to wage war on civilian populations. Muslim armys can fight with Non Muslim armys in a defensive or offensive war. Such wars were faught after careful consideration and discussion and the main aim of the war was never the massacre of non Muslim civilians. The aim was one of two either to defend Islam and the Muslims who were under attack from an invading army or to invade another land to establish Islam within the society with the aim of improving the society not massacaring its civilians. He also mentioned defense which you seem to have conveniently ignored. Fighting the opposing army doesn't then translate to fighting everyone who isn't Muslim:roll: I was concentrating on the 'offensive' war bit, as that is the bit that concerns me. I've no problem with defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 But what if I live in a society that doesn't want Islam establishing, or believes that it will not be an improvement, but nonetheless an Islamic army invaded it? I suppose my choice would be to accept Islam (which isn't an option, as I don't believe in God) or to fight back - in which case I would become 'non-civilian' and get killed. Great. So the teaching is not to kill civilians, but to invade other lands and spread Islam. And if anyone fights back, it's fine to kill them. That seems to be what you are saying. Oh poor you, please come out from under the desk and stop the trolling by making up scenarios just to back up your own agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Christianity is regarded as part of Islam and it is true that conformity is expected by Muslims to the rules of Islam but then again that is no different to conformity to the rules any society. Islam is a communal based way of life for the benefit of the whole community rather than the misguided misconception of individual's right to do as they please. Piety and self improvement is a large part of being a Muslim rather than your portrayal lust for killing. I'm not denying there are bits in the Koran (or the bible) that I like. There doesn't seem much point in discussing those though. I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea that we should try and be nice to each other, and both religions do say that. What I am talking about is the bits in both holy books where God encourages wars and killing. I'm not portraying Muslims as having a lust for killing. I am expressing concern that the holy book of Islam provides amply justification for killing to those that wish to find it - as does the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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