DT Ralge Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Crikey spiders, am I posting in a foreign language here!? I'm not denying that cameras are effective. Neither am I denying that lower speeds are "safer". I was simply pointing out that evidence for the latter (which is what Spinny provided) is not, necessarily, evidence for the former (which is what Spinny was suggesting). That was all. Are we there yet? Do you accept that evidence supporting the claim that lower speeds are safer is not, in itself, evidence for the efficacy of speed cameras? No end of data scrutiny is going to change the fact that he presented a logically fallacious argument. I merely wished to make the point that by doing so he weakened his credibility. For what it's worth, I chose to do so because I largely agree with his points but I feel his boorish and, in this case, flawed presentation of evidence is counter productive; turning people away from his points because they are put out by the delivery. OK - did you see the evidence of the efficacy of cameras in Derbyshire in the link I provided? My original link was not so accurate, so go to http://www.slowitdown.co.uk/F-O-I.html and towards the bottom of the page click on: "Derbyshire Fixed and Mobile collision statistics" And http://www.safetycamera.org/faqs/safety-or-cash might be of interest too although, S. Yorks Partnership does not currently publish equivalent figures to Derbyshire's (they tried, but the figures that were on the site were imbecilic in content and presentation and were taken off as a result some time ago). The ConDems are making all partnerships publish such stats in the future to be more transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindrift Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 The difference between shoplifting and speeding is that 100% of the time, shop lifting isn't a victimless crime, where as 99.9% of the time, speeding is a victimless crime. Then why are residents up and down the country clamouring for speed cameras? Speeding is NEVER a victimless crime, as has been explained upthread. It intimidates vulnerable road users, scares old people, frightens children, terrifies cyclists and alrms other road users who may naively imagine other road users are obeyting the law. Speeding is aggressive anti-social behaviour. In fact it is the number one anti-social behaviour that people complain about: Speeding is top of the league when it comes to antisocial behaviour, a University of Reading study has shown. Thames Valley Police approached psychologists at the University of Reading and asked them to analyse the British Crime Survey - which considers the concerns of more than 17,000 people across the UK. Speeding traffic was rated as a significantly greater problem than all other antisocial behaviours, with 43% of the population regarded speeding traffic as a 'very' or 'fairly big' problem in their area. Furthermore, the perception of speeding traffic as the antisocial behaviour of most concern was held by both men and women - young, middle aged, and old. The study's authors, Dr Damian Poulter and Professor Frank McKenna from the University of Reading's Psychology department, replicated the findings in a second survey, which also found that 85% of respondents felt travelling immediately above the speed limit on residential roads was unacceptable behaviour. Professor McKenna said "It would appear that we have greatly underestimated the degree of public concern over speeding. "In comparison to concerns such as intimidation, vandalism, harassment, disruptive neighbours, drunkenness and drugs, speeding is the number one concern." http://www.reading.ac.uk/about/newsandevents/releases/PR3936.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shazatko Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 i got a 60 quid fine for jumping a red light i wasnt consentrating my son was being a pain and there were road works and trying to get to where i wanted to be sooner rather than later got me a ticket im more observant near lights and watch my speed i cant afford to loose my licence or pay out the fines i didnt get the option he wants to think himself lucky he dint hit some1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perplexed Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Which county was it that turned off all it's speed camera's? Cambridge. And to date they've seen no increase in the number of accidents or the severity of accidents... That seems to imply that as a means of improving safety, camera's are a huge fail. Covert cameras to catch those who routinely speed would hopefully rapidly obtain bans for those morons travelling well in excess of the speed limit before they take anyone out. It'd thin out the traffic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Maybe it would. But I think we've established that speed cameras don't increase road safety, so maybe we should just replace them with some road traffic officers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Then why are residents up and down the country clamouring for speed cameras? We're all residents here, and you're just about the only one in love with speed cameras. And you also happen not to be a motorist, go figure! Speeding is NEVER a victimless crime, as has been explained upthread. It intimidates vulnerable road users, scares old people, frightens children, terrifies cyclists and alrms other road users who may naively imagine other road users are obeyting the law. Yep, I scared a whole bunch of old people yesterday when I hit 65 in a 60 zone on an empty road. There were victims left right and centre, on this empty road. Terrified cyclists, old people, other vehicle drivers, all there on this empty road. So many victims I lost count! Speeding is aggressive anti-social behaviour. In fact it is the number one anti-social behaviour that people complain about: Speeding is top of the league when it comes to antisocial behaviour, a University of Reading study has shown. Thames Valley Police approached psychologists at the University of Reading and asked them to analyse the British Crime Survey - which considers the concerns of more than 17,000 people across the UK. Speeding traffic was rated as a significantly greater problem than all other antisocial behaviours, with 43% of the population regarded speeding traffic as a 'very' or 'fairly big' problem in their area. Furthermore, the perception of speeding traffic as the antisocial behaviour of most concern was held by both men and women - young, middle aged, and old. The study's authors, Dr Damian Poulter and Professor Frank McKenna from the University of Reading's Psychology department, replicated the findings in a second survey, which also found that 85% of respondents felt travelling immediately above the speed limit on residential roads was unacceptable behaviour. Professor McKenna said "It would appear that we have greatly underestimated the degree of public concern over speeding. "In comparison to concerns such as intimidation, vandalism, harassment, disruptive neighbours, drunkenness and drugs, speeding is the number one concern." http://www.reading.ac.uk/about/newsandevents/releases/PR3936.aspx Oh, Residential Roads. The kind where you very very rarely see a speed camera. Ah, well now I see how you've got confused about the whole thing. Everyone else is talking about the type of roads where speed cameras actually get placed, and you're talking about make believe spindrift world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 OK - did you see the evidence of the efficacy of cameras in Derbyshire in the link I provided? My original link was not so accurate, so go to http://www.slowitdown.co.uk/F-O-I.html and towards the bottom of the page click on: "Derbyshire Fixed and Mobile collision statistics" And http://www.safetycamera.org/faqs/safety-or-cash might be of interest too although, S. Yorks Partnership does not currently publish equivalent figures to Derbyshire's (they tried, but the figures that were on the site were imbecilic in content and presentation and were taken off as a result some time ago). The ConDems are making all partnerships publish such stats in the future to be more transparent. DT, thanks for the response, again. You seem like an intelligent and articulate person but, seriously, have you actually read and understood my posts? If so, could you clarify, for me, why you are directing me towards statistics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Oxfordshire's cameras are being turned back on. Because of an increase in accidents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindrift Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Because of an increase in accidents? there does not have to be an accident for speeding to be anti-social behaviour. Speeding is never a victimless crime, it's bullying, aggressive behaviour. Why not just leave the house 5 minutes earlier? The new ANPR cameras will catch other bad driver behaviour, tail-gating and erratic driving: http://www.car-advise.co.uk/2010/08/new-fixed-anpr-cameras-beware/ These will also catch uninsured drivers. I imagine the anti-camera brigade will consider this an outrageous intrusion and people who forget to insure their car should be allowed to drive around, costing the rest of us £400m a year in the accidents, deaths and misery they cause. The new 20mph zones in London will be covered by these cameras: 20mph speed limits cut London road injuries by 40%, survey claims Researchers call for similar restrictions in all metropolitan areas of the UK Imposing 20mph speed limits on London streets has cut road injuries by 40% claimed researchers , who want similar restrictions in all metropolitan areas of the UK. The capital's 20mph zones were particularly useful in saving young children from death and injury, said researchers from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/11/20mph-london-speed-limit Reducing speeds save lives, cameras play an important part in reducing speeds. Although many drivers dislike the idea of speed cameras, a study of international research showed on Wednesday that this kind of monitoring of roads does cut the number of traffic injuries and deaths. The study was conducted by Australia's University of Queensland. They analyzed 35 studies from Australia, the United States, Canada, Germany, Denmark, Finland, Britain, Hong Kong, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Norway and saw the usefulness of speed cameras in preventing accidents. Collated findings from all the studies showed that speed cameras cut the average speed by 1-15 percent and the percentage of vehicles that exceeded local speed limits between 14 percent and 65 percent. The numbers of crashes in the areas of the cameras also fell by between 8 percent and 49 percent, while fatal or serious injury crashes reduced by between 11 percent and 44 percent. http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101006/Speed-cameras-reduce-road-accidents-significantly-Study.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truman Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Collated findings from all the studies showed that speed cameras cut the average speed by 1-15 percent and the percentage of vehicles that exceeded local speed limits between 14 percent and 65 percent. The numbers of crashes in the areas of the cameras also fell by between 8 percent and 49 percent, while fatal or serious injury crashes reduced by between 11 percent and 44 percent. http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101006/Speed-cameras-reduce-road-accidents-significantly-Study.aspx Since the cameras in Ofordshire were turned off has there been an increase in crashes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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