UK unemployment at 17 year high

[Tony]

Carving up a post and obfuscating the overall point being made doesn't make you look any more right I'm affraid.

 

The fact is that when you are talking about Capitalism generalisation is totally appropriate because there is only one consideration, PROFIT. If people being poor is their fault, then you really don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to predict how their treatment of the average Joe/Joanne will go do you?

 

It’s really not hard to predict way ahead of time what a Capitalist politician will do. Slash services, privatisation, sell off national assets. These are generalisations born out of ideological imperatives. So I really don’t know what your point is. A leopard does not change its spots. And with this predictable philosophical base comes a plethora of anti libertarian measures. I can tell you for instance by looking in my "big society" crystal ball that as the cuts in services to front line provision really begins to bite, criminality will spiral.

 

The response "reluctantly" (not) will be hard line laws on the statute books. It's not a cliché or a generalisation it is just the Tory being a Tory. As soon as the Stalinist in Armani taste left by Blair et al has faded in people’s minds. The "nice" Tory will once again make way for the consequences Tory. Sure as eggs are eggs.

 

P.S Please do me a favour. Since you are clearly an intelligent person, do you think it would be alright to respond to what I write as a whole? And not do the old trick of carving up a piece so that the context is lost. Thanks.

 

For somebody who clearly sees themselves as a cut above the rest you seem to enjoy seeing yourself as being oppressed rather than free to just get on with doing your own thing.

 

Have a read of what others are saying for a moment. See if you can begin to understand that there is a better way than thinking that everything is really crap and it's all out of your hands because it's somebody else's fault.

[Rowan22]

For somebody who clearly sees themselves as a cut above the rest you seem to enjoy seeing yourself as being oppressed rather than free to just get on with doing your own thing.

 

Have a read of what others are saying for a moment. See if you can begin to understand that there is a better way than thinking that everything is really crap and it's all out of your hands because it's somebody else's fault.

 

Please dont project your own sense of superiority onto me.

[Rowan22]

Anyway, now that those whose own political ideas are so threadbare, that they have to attack like hyenas in a pack, have derailed things. Shall we get back to the O.P. U.K Unemployment at a seventeen year high? I can’t wait to hear the suggestions from those who subscribe to Capitalism as to what the solution is going to be. So go on fellas, you are all so obviously desperate to be centre stage take it away!

Explain to people the legitimacy of an eight hundred and fifty billion banking bail out. Try to include why Boots, Vodaphone et al are registered in off shore tax havens while you explain to those who are losing their jobs.

 

Remember I said legitimise, so sentences like “they will take their business to some other more business friendly country” need not apply, since I think most will agree that their actions are morally bankrupt, though legal. Which says an awful lot about legality in a Capitalist economy doesn’t it?

[Tony]

Please dont project your own sense of superiority onto me.

 

Sorry sunshine but if you like being downtrodden then downtrodden you will stay. You can make your own way on your own miserable path if you choose to.

 

The difference is in the mirror.

[Rowan22]

Don't be sore: if you're going to argue a point (which is entirely fair and commendable), use facts, not misconceived generalisations or straw men arguments. You're the guy who brought up wartime/totalitarian/gunpoint-driven research, when all I did was pointing out facts underpinning current (and not so current) innovation, being that without working capital, no innovation gets done. It's been the same since DaVinci, and still before that

Treachery and murder have little do with the OP or even this little tangent of ours about capitalism. There has ben plenty of "treachery and murder" before the Nazis, in fact since just about Adam & Eve I'm sure. Capitalism is at least as old, it just wasn't called as such until more recent times.

Capitalism as you narrowly define it, perhaps.

 

Capitalism as a (even if only moderately-) free market of good/services traded on a supply/demand basis, not in a thousand years.

 

As for dealing with a permanently-chaotic economy post the Golden 30s (60s-90s), I have been for years, old chap. I 'started' as the output of higher education, like so many others, in the early 90s. No golden spoon, no 'network', no 'old buddies' or any such other easy ride here: I came to this country in '93 knowing noone, in a 10 year old car with a failing headgasket and two suitcases to my name, understanding very little of lingo, with foreign qualifications no prospective employer could relate to.

 

After 15 years or so of dragging myself up by the skin of my teeth and seizing every opportunity going, à la upinwath, I am now a multilingual professional with highly-specialist (read: expensive), always-in-demand and location-independent skills

That figures. With such disregard for historical accuracy, no wonder history keeps repeating itself

 

Not in the least. But capitalism (at least per my understanding of the notion or concept) has little to do with that state of affairs. The trillion pound debt wouldn't have been run by a "capitalist": a capitalist (again, at least per my understanding of the notion or concept) understands that you don't spend money you haven't earned in the first place.

 

 

 

Blah Blah Blah. So you have arrived in Britain whose society of well educated burgeoning middle class professionals was created when free education (thanks to Socialism) was in full swing.

 

You have come from somewhere else, to this country to find social and economic mobility. To take advantage of our infrastructure. The N.H.S the equitable historical traditions of our country which have been fought for over centuries by Libertarians standing up to abuses of power and privilege...

And having availed yourself of them, feel yourself empowered to prescribe a dog eat dog Philosophy! I must say why didn't you stay where you were? If your "zeal" for "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" is so much a part of your soul?

 

I’ll tell you why shall I? Because at the heart of all who wave the flag of Capitalism, is a misanthropic instinct based on exploitation or to give it its colloquial term Bullying! And like most bullies, this Capitalist Ubermensch mindset is a mask for moral cowardice.

 

But go on; let’s hear how my clichéd rhetoric makes no impact on you what so ever. It just reinforces my sense that freedom from you people will never be negotiated and as ever, must be forcefully taken.

[Rowan22]

Sorry sunshine but if you like being downtrodden then downtrodden you will stay. You can make your own way on your own miserable path if you choose to.

 

The difference is in the mirror.

 

I'm not downtrodden thanks PAL! I just give a sh*t about those who are. Something which probably seems very strange to you no doubt.

[L00b]

Blah Blah Blah. So you have arrived in Britain whose society of well educated burgeoning middle class professionals was created when free education (thanks to Socialism) was in full swing.

 

You have come from somewhere else, to this country to find social and economic mobility. To take advantage of our infrastructure. The N.H.S the equitable historical traditions of our country which have been fought for over centuries by Libertarians standing up to abuses of power and privilege...

And having availed yourself of them, feel yourself empowered to prescribe a dog eat dog Philosophy! I must say why didn't you stay where you were? If your "zeal" for "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" is so much a part of your soul?

Because each of France, Luxembourg, Belgium and Germany did have all this (and actually much better, in each case ) but lacked the free market attitude which makes this country great (still) and makes any lambda person with a modicum of drive capable of achieving far more, far sooner.

 

France gave me all these advantages that you cite, but 14+ years of socialism (at the time) had completely stifled economic and personal development, and it's still not back on rails to this day. In fact, the UK after 13 years of Labour is pretty much a mirror image of France in 1995...unsurprisingly. Look at French unemployment figures for the last 15 years, for an idea of the problem. The UK has been reaping the rewards from my tax money ever since. Thereby benefitting the British society and infrastructure, rather than the French ones. Properly dis-gus-ting, this state capitalism affair, isn't it?

I’ll tell you why shall I? Because at the heart of all who wave the flag of Capitalism, is a misanthropic instinct based on exploitation or to give it its colloquial term Bullying! And like most bullies, this Capitalist Ubermensch mindset is a mask for moral cowardice.

 

But go on; let’s hear how my clichéd rhetoric makes no impact on you what so ever. It just reinforces my sense that freedom from you people will never be negotiated and as ever, must be forcefully taken.

You know, relative to most countries I'm aware of, have lived in and/or visited (there's a few, and one very prominently in the news at the moment ), I feel pretty free/not hard-done by here

 

Already back in 1987, I wouldn't have dreamt of going out for a beer in Gharyan, even though we were welcome guests building pre-fab farms back then, with full authorisations/visas/etc. and a permanent government guide/translator 'minder'. Daffy's State Police was a little too 'unpredictable' in its ways and the minder couldn't garantee we wouldn't wind up in some dungeon, exemplary behaviour during our outing or not (and that applied to the locals as well). Compared to that kind of environment, your idealist spiel about freedom is pretty small potatoes, IMHO.

 

Interesting how this latest post of yours contrasts with your earlier reply of last night, though. What's the matter, wrong side of bed this morning?

[Tony]

I'm not downtrodden thanks PAL! I just give a sh*t about those who are. Something which probably seems very strange to you no doubt.

I'd recommend that you don't even begin think about that particular pishing contest.

[Rowan22]

Because each of France, Luxembourg, Belgium and Germany did have all this (and actually much better, in each case ) but lacked the free market attitude which makes this country great (still) and makes any lambda person with a modicum of drive capable of achieving far more, far sooner.

 

You know, relative to most countries I'm aware of, have lived in and/or visited (there's a few, and one very prominently in the news at the moment ), I feel pretty free/not hard-done by here

 

Interesting how this latest post of yours contrasts with your earlier reply of last night, though. What's the matter, wrong side of bed this morning?

 

I love your use of "smiley faces". They in no way seem like an attempt to fill the space left by your absence of morality. Your last "point" really just underscores why most on the left see most on the right as clueless in all but money grubbing! Because they are. It's about something you just don’t get. Some people do not enjoy being commoditised. It's not that they (can't) succeed in a Capitalist society; it's that they are constitutionally opposed to becoming the type of person Capitalism rewards. Seeing relentless examples of oppression and exploitation brought about by sheer greed as something they do not wish to be complicit in. I am opposed to Capitalism on the basis that it elevates property rights above human rights period.

 

Still no suggestions about either unemployment or the trillion pound debt. Interesting that?

[L00b]

Your generalisations are getting really quite funny, Rowan.

 

So, according to you, I am morally bankrupt, and eminently proud of it

 

You know what? You're not wrong and, really, I should stop pretending.

 

So, this coming tax year, I shall remain here but become self-employed in Luxemburg, and pay zero tax in the UK (yes, I can even reclaim my VAT over there). Hey, if companies can do it, and I have ways and means to do it myself, I'd be stupid not to, wouldn't I?

 

I'll enjoy vastly reduced income tax, obtain better and 'proper' pension rights, better health cover for me and my family, and more family tax credits and payments than we have been getting here (all the better, since Osbourne has decided to take ours).

 

I could have done that 7 years ago when we moved to Ireland, but my morally bankrupt mind thought it would be fairer to contribute to the local economy and state services, since we were using them, and still thought as much when we returned to the UK in 2008. How deluded must I have been! But I do thank you for showing me the errors of my ways.

 

Still no suggestions about either unemployment or the trillion pound debt. Interesting that?

No, symptomatic.

 

In some ways, your posts remind me about a relative who is forever begrudging what other people have and he hasn't, what opportunities they are getting and he's not, how well they seem to be doing and he's not...He's a grafter (and does reasonably well after all that), but has little to no drive. Twice I've bootstrapped him with his own small business (so he could get at all this 'more' that he wants): bought him the domain name, set up his email/stationary, created/placed/paid for ads for him in specialist press, set him up with leads. To no avail.

 

The 'lesson' so to call it, is that people have to try and help themselves first: if you can't get a job, create the work and the job. Noone owes anyone a living.