My so called government.

[danot]

i think, as you know he was saying:), the money is spent on 'educating' the ones that are brainwashed, at risk of the same or those without another choice but to join up. NOT all. but you knew that's what he was saying.

Did I really? I propose we agree to disagree on that point.

 

Origanally posted by Kaimani

the assumption that all radical are uneducated is not implied by the fact that money goes to educate people at risk of being radicalized. the idea is simply that, for the most part, on both sides, 'education' is what's missing.

Why then are educated British born muslims being radicaclized?

 

Originally posted by Kaimani

we're already too deep into all this to cut and run now. if we can't afford it now god help us if we just cut and run.

after the bombs we've dropped, the wars, the puppet regimes, the refugees we've created (not all our fault but try explaining that to the bereaved and displaced) the terrorism we've suffered through so far will be put in the shade by what'll come i think.

You make it sound as if the 'Islamic values vs westernized values debate' is actually open for discussion and taking place and making progress as we speak, which just isn't the case. Most none British born muslims don't agree with western values, they despise western values as well as those who live by them.

[Kaimani]

Did I really? I propose we agree to disagree on that point.

 

Why then are educated British born muslims being radicaclized?

 

You make it sound as if the 'Islamic values vs westernized values debate' is actually open for discussion and taking place and making progress as we speak, which just isn't the case. Most none British born muslims don't agree with western values, they despise western values as well as those who live by them.

 

Why then are educated British born muslims being radicaclized?

 

because of perceived injustices. the same way as it has always been when one group feels downpressed by another. people's identity is a very complex thing. so, while, some think of themselves as British first some think of themselves Muslim first. and some just don't think that in such an unfair fight being waged over very questionable reasons such a powerful country should be blasting bombs on people who can hardly get clean water.

again, it's nothing to do with academic education. fair enough there just are some people looking for their part in the world, crazy, down right bad or whatever, but 'they' like us just want to live their lives in peace.

 

You make it sound as if the 'Islamic values vs westernized values debate' is actually open for discussion and taking place and making progress as we speak, which just isn't the case.

 

there is cause to think that we're making headway. and if we're not then that's the best reason ever to re-double our efforts, like many Muslims are also doing, because doing nothing or dropping more bombs is not really an option, i don't think.

[danot]

Why then are educated British born muslims being radicaclized?

 

because of perceived injustices. the same way as it has always been when one group feels downpressed by another. people's identity is a very complex thing. so, while, some think of themselves as British first some think of themselves Muslim first. and some just don't think that in such an unfair fight being waged over very questionable reasons such a powerful country should be blasting bombs on people who can hardly get clean water.

again, it's nothing to do wirh academic education. fair enough there just are some people looking for their part in the world, crazy, down right bad or whatever, but 'they' like us just want to live their lives in peace.

If it's nothing to do with academic education, why are we spending £650million to fund Pakistan's education programme?

 

You make it sound as if the 'Islamic values vs westernized values debate' is actually open for discussion and taking place and making progress as we speak, which just isn't the case.

 

there is cause to think that we're making headway. and if we're not then that's the best reason ever to re-double our efforts, like many Muslims are also doing, because doing nothing or dropping more bombs is not really an option, i don't think.

You've aready acknowledged that British born, well ecucated muslims are being radicalized because they indentfy more with their Islamic faith than our western ideals and values. You've also admitted that- "education has nothing to do with it", Which is making me wonder what you're actually arguing against here.

[evildrneil]

Correction. Your argument assumes all muslims are radical and prone to becoming terrorists. Otherwise why defend our governments decision to spend £650million on educating them so they stop attacking us?

 

I think you'll find that my initial comment was correct. You said:

 

So why spend £650 million educating them? Why not just send teachers over their to westernize their belief systems? Isn't that what has to change if we want peace between our two countries?.. their belief systems?

 

Which claims that the problem with terrorism is inherent in the Muslim belief system, i.e. you are assuming that all Muslims are radical and prone to becoming terrorists. By contrast I wasn't talking about "educating them so they stop attacking us" but paying to replace an education system that is known to radicalise Muslims which we have requested be closed down.

 

Yes, it is unreasonable, we're up to our neck in <REMOVED>, we can't afford it.

 

We are in a lot of debt but that doesn't mean we can suddenly stop paying for things. The war in Afghanistan has so far cost over 12 billion pounds and hundreds of lives. If the comparatively tiny amount given to Pakistan helps slow the flow of radicals from the Pakistan border region it is surely money well spent?

 

Are you suggesting that all Islamic radicals are uneducated?... are you really that dim?

 

No where have I suggested that all or even any Islamic radicals are uneducated.

[evildrneil]

so the pakistani government orders the closure of these schools yet we still let them operate in this country is it a human rights issue here

 

They haven't ordered the closure of al madrasas just those that offer any sort of military/paramilitary training.

[Kaimani]

If it's nothing to do with academic education, why are we spending £650million to fund Pakistan's education programme?

 

You've aready acknowledged that British born, well ecucated muslims are being radicalized because they indentfy more with their Islamic faith than our western ideals and values. You've also admitted that- "education has nothing to do with it", Which is making me wonder what you're actually arguing against here.

 

If it's nothing to do with academic education, why are we spending £650million to fund Pakistan's education programme?

 

because the only real places you can get young people, especially men, in enough numbers to make it worth while is in schools and madrases. in the same way we have people going into schools and community centers here to talk about everything from drug abuse, STIs, gun and knife crime etc. it's not academic education but is being done as part of the education system.

You've aready acknowledged that British born, well ecucated muslims are being radicalized because they indentfy more with their Islamic faith than our western ideals and values. You've also admitted that- "education has nothing to do with it", Which is making me wonder what you're actually arguing against here

 

i said 'academic education' has little or nothing to do with it, as evidenced by those 'well educated' British Muslims being radicalized. knowing the theory of relativity helps very little when trying to come to terms with, say, why your country of birth is bombing your uncles and relatives or people that look more like you than the majority of people in your own country. things get mixed up. the 'education' required is like with ex junkies taking about drugs etc, Muslims in the army talking about how they work that with their faith, the army explaining why they're doing what they're doing, statistics, victims, victimizers etc. i don't know all the answers but this sounds like a good start for me.

and i gave varied reasons why they do get radicalized, 'identity' is just one of them.

 

what i'm 'arguing against', as you put it, is the idea that investing in their education system is a waste of money and a useless plan even if we had the money.

what, may i ask, would you suggest be done?

[andikay]

Why then are educated British born muslims being radicaclized?

 

because of perceived injustices. the same way as it has always been when one group feels downpressed by another. people's identity is a very complex thing. so, while, some think of themselves as British first some think of themselves Muslim first. and some just don't think that in such an unfair fight being waged over very questionable reasons such a powerful country should be blasting bombs on people who can hardly get clean water.

again, it's nothing to do with academic education. fair enough there just are some people looking for their part in the world, crazy, down right bad or whatever, but 'they' like us just want to live their lives in peace.

 

You make it sound as if the 'Islamic values vs westernized values debate' is actually open for discussion and taking place and making progress as we speak, which just isn't the case.

 

there is cause to think that we're making headway. and if we're not then that's the best reason ever to re-double our efforts, like many Muslims are also doing, because doing nothing or dropping more bombs is not really an option, i don't think.

 

 

I agree with some parts of your post and do think that we need to work with all members of society in the hope that we can have a future of piece. I changed a few wards in your post because the same as to apply to everyone not just Muslims.

 

Why then are educated British born people turning to the BNP?

 

Because of perceived injustices, the same way as it has always been when one group feels down pressed by another. People’s identity is a very complex thing, some think of themselves as British and see their way of life slowly changing and some just don't think that it is fair to change our society to allow outsiders to fit in.

It's nothing to do with academic education, it’s just some people looking for their part in the world, crazy, downright bad or whatever, but they just want to live their lives in peace.

 

But instead of engaging with these people we call them thick and uneducated which will further alienate them possible turning them more radical which may get to the point where they start blowing things up.

[Kaimani]

I agree with some parts of your post and do think that we need to work with all members of society in the hope that we can have a future of piece. I changed a few wards in your post because the same as to apply to everyone not just Muslims.

 

Why then are educated British born people turning to the BNP?

 

Because of perceived injustices, the same way as it has always been when one group feels down pressed by another. People’s identity is a very complex thing, some think of themselves as British and see their way of life slowly changing and some just don't think that it is fair to change our society to allow outsiders to fit in.

It's nothing to do with academic education, it’s just some people looking for their part in the world, crazy, downright bad or whatever, but they just want to live their lives in peace.

 

But instead of engaging with these people we call them thick and uneducated which will further alienate them possible turning them more radical which may get to the point where they start blowing things up.

 

couldn't agree with you more. trying to ignore them, calling them 'fringe groups', mocking them etc just makes things worse.

 

everyone needs to be engaged, and their views and fears listened to. otherwise, as we know, someone else with rise from the cesspits to listen...and we all know how that end.

[upinwath]

I work hard, I pay my taxes, I do everything my government asks of me. Yet, my so called government continues to put the needs and requirements of every other(Help me I'm struggling to make ends meet)migrant and EU country before my own. Why do they do this?

 

I'm beginning to feel like a guest in my own home. What am I paying taxes for anyway?... It doesn't benefit me.

 

It's all down to those pesky black people, gays and Muslims.

If only they were all shot, the dole grabbers could get whatever they needed.

 

Yep, here we have it folks, another attempt at a subtle racist thread.

 

Pathetic crap delivered directly from the OP's arse hole..

[Xt500]

Well, people were thick enough to give them slightly more votes allowing them to seize power without getting elected, despite what they did in their previous regimes. They say people live and learn but that obviously isn't the case and, additionally, there were lots of voters around that have previously never experienced life under the Tories. It's going to get much much worse too.

 

 

Who did you vote for then?Not the Labour party that put who ever got in next in a very difficult position surely?I heard they had some miracle cure to being skint,spend spend spend