Was communism right to suppress religion ?

[JFKvsNixon]

Communism has been dumped in the garbage bin of history in Russia and within the next 15 years at most in China it will also go the same way.

Russian Orthodoxism and Bhuddism are doing alright in both countries

 

China dumped communism years ago.

[Cavegirl]

Marx once described religion as 'the opiate of the masses', the idea that being told what to believe would supress a persons ability to think freely for themselves. However, Marx was pretty ambivalent towards the church. He recognised that people were subjugated by the church, but at the same time he saw the role that the church played in terms of creating community cohesion and admitted that church gatherings had played a vital role in worker protest movements.

 

What Marx really wanted was the emancipation of the individual from an economic model that he perceived as gradually destroying their innate humanity. The idea that working for somebody else for money was dehumanising compared to the more 'natural' process of working for yourself for what you wanted.

 

By the time of Stalin however, Marx's message had been largely lost or corrupted. As the state became the supreme power in society Stalin, in essence, took on the role of God and the state copied many ideas from the church. Stalin was worshipped, he was feared and he was given the power of life or death over the population. He was at the head of a totalitarian state that could not cope with its objectives to control every aspect of social life and as such was responsible for up to 20 million deaths.

 

It was not a failing of the ideology of communism however, that led to this situation. We see a very similar thing occur in fascist Nazi Germany where again the totalitarian state assumed the role of the church and Hitler was worshipped as though he were a God- he was immune from taking responsibility for his inhuman actions being above the laws that governed others. His rule led to around 7 million deaths.

 

To add a further level of complexity to the situation we can also say that totalitarian states do not have to remove religion from society in order to exist. Saudi Arabia for example, is ruled by both a totalitarian state and a strong Islamic religious tradition. Human rights abuses exist in this state too.

 

Based upon these ideas I would have to say that communism was not wrong to try to suppress religion, but it definately was wrong to suggest that emancipation could come about through heavy state control and it was also wrong to incorporate the notion that the state and its leader could become as omnipotent and free from responsibility as God. 'All men equal under God' is a very important phrase to consider whenever the idea of removing religion from society arises- what happens when there's nothing to prevent an individual from assuming full control over people?

 

Left wing ideology however, does not have to be totalitarian in nature. It can occupy the left middle ground as a form of socialism or it can be very liberal as a form of anarchic communism as shown in this diagram:

 

....................................Totalitarian................................

.............................Communism.... !....... Fascism........................

................................................ !..........................................

............................................... !..........................................

.... Left wing--------Socialism ---- !-----Conservatism---- Right wing

................................................ !.........................................

.................................................!.........................................

.............. Anarcho-communism.......!........Anarcho-capitalism........

......................................... Liberal ..............................

 

I don't believe that there's any reason to suggest that a more liberal form of communism, with or without religion, would lead to the types of atrocities witnessed in the heavily totalitarian states during the last century. In fact it was liberal communism that Marx was aiming for in the first place.

[Harleyman]

China dumped communism years ago.

 

 

Free enterprise has replaced most of the communist system but people calling themselves communists still make up the government.

I'll believe communism is finally dead once and for all when the red flag is hauled down and replaced with something else

[gnvqsos]

Suppressing anything just drives it underground, it's a waste of time and counterproductive.

 

Whyn then would presumably learned leaders attempt to suppress anything?Some things reemerge but many are sqashed.Also underground phenomena tend to be overlooked by the masses.

[JFKvsNixon]

Free enterprise has replaced most of the communist system but people calling themselves communists still make up the government.

I'll believe communism is finally dead once and for all when the red flag is hauled down and replaced with something else

 

The communist badge just gives the government the justification for the one party state.

 

I have a good friend whose Chinese and who regularly returns to China, and from what she describes China is probably one of the most capitalist places that there is, no regulation, just pure money making (or not) capitalism.

[Harleyman]

The communist badge just gives the government the justification for the one party state.

 

I have a good friend whose Chinese and who regularly returns to China, and from what she describes China is probably one of the most capitalist places that there is, no regulation, just pure money making (or not) capitalism.

 

I spent 9 days in China two years ago. That doesn't make me anything of an authority on Chinese affairs of course but while capitalism flourishes the government still holds a formidable amount of authority in just about everything else. People still disappear in the middle of the night and black marketeers and drug dealers swiftly dealt with in the severest form.

The government seems to have eased up on the matter of religion as well though as there are quite a few Bhuddist temples to be seen and the ones we saw crowded with worshippers

[JFKvsNixon]

I spent 9 days in China two years ago. That doesn't make me anything of an authority on Chinese affairs of course but while capitalism flourishes the government still holds a formidable amount of authority in just about everything else. People still disappear in the middle of the night and black marketeers and drug dealers swiftly dealt with in the severest form.

The government seems to have eased up on the matter of religion as well though as there are quite a few Bhuddist temples to be seen and the ones we saw crowded with worshippers

 

The government are only interested if you break the law, and if you can afford the bribes you're probably OK. There is very little interest regulating the economy though.

 

Interestingly the historian Niall Ferguson stated in Civilization: The West and the Rest, that there are more Christians in China than there are in Europe now.

[donkey]

Was the soviet union and china right to supress the idea of region in thier society's !

 

This question goes out to those who vigrosuly defend secualrism and athesism on the net , who think they are in a majority when in fact they are a world minority !

 

If secularists and atheists are in some way responsible for those who ban religion by virtue of their shared non belief, that must make you rersponsible for the Spainsh Inquisition and the Taliban by virtue of you shared belief.

[Harleyman]

The government are only interested if you break the law, and if you can afford the bribes you're probably OK. There is very little interest regulating the economy though.

 

Interestingly the historian Niall Ferguson stated in Civilization: The West and the Rest, that there are more Christians in China than there are in Europe now.

 

I have to give the Chinese government a lot of credit for transitioning the country from one that was run under the communist system to one that has already emerged as a major capitalist society.

I think looking at what happened in Russia after the collapse of communism in the 1980s taught them a hard lesson in that respect and also taking into account that by nature the Chinese mind is a patient one.

Any culture that could construct a defensive wall 2,000 miles long over many years bears that out

 

Interestingly enough when we were there all the places we went to or ate at only wanted US dollars except the hotel shops and bars which required payment in Chinese currency.

Curiously also when we needed to change US into Chinese money the girl at the hotel desk wouldn't take any US money that looked a bit worn. She examined every bill closely before accepting it

[Ryedo40]

Was the soviet union and china right to supress the idea of region in thier society's!

 

Religion was, and continues to be permitted in both Russia and China. In the case of the SU, the Russian Orthodox Church remains the state endorsed flavour of Christianity and, since Stalin made deals with the Church for helping to drive the masses to war, it has increased in size and influence; one of the deals Stalin made with ROC was that, after getting rid of the Catholics, he'd give them their Churches.

 

Where China is concerned, they too have an official state endorsed Christian church - along with state endorsed Bibles. However, China wasn't all that welcoming to certain flavours of religion; especially those influenced by foreign powers; for example, the Catholic church was seen as a threat because it's an extended arm of the Vatican. China also has its own native religions and philosophies so, from their point of view, it's understandable they saw a foreign religion as a threat to their way of life (just as many Brits see Islam as a threat to ours).

 

In both cases, they didn't outright ban religion. They did, however, attempt to regulate and suppress variants of religion that were seen as a threat to the state or danger to the population at large - just as we had once done by establishing a state endorsed C of E while seeing other religions (Christian variants included) & non-belief as a threat.

 

This question goes out to those who vigrosuly defend secualrism and athesism on the net , who think they are in a majority when in fact they are a world minority !

 

You're confusing secularism and atheism with communism. Communism is a political system - just as democracy is a political system. Neither come with god on their label.

 

Secularists can also be both theist and atheist. Both see the advantages of a secular system. For example, the secular separation of church and state that some countries practice generally serves to protect religion from being misused by political systems; it also serves to protect individuals and minority groups - religious or not - from being oppressed or persecuted by a dominating religion and their theocratic systems. Many of those who defend secularism believe that no one group of people should be granted privileges above the other. Secularists want a fair society.

 

Judging by your post, I guess you oppose a fair society and believe that sticking a religious label on your head should grant you privileges that are denied to others.

 

Guess it says a lot about you as a person.