"Slutwalks" in N. America

[quisquose]

Walk down West St on a Saturday night...

 

Which is evidence of what exactly?

 

You have made the claim that dressing like a 'slut' will increase a woman's chances of being sexually assaulted. Is this just an opinion, or have you actually some evidence for the claim?

 

There seems to be plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

http://www.dpc.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/81678/What_you_can_do_if_you_experience_sexual_assault.pdf

 

Your arguments seem a bit confusing. You are careful to distance your comments from any idea of blame, but as Chris Sleeps points out merely using the word 'should', as the officer did, implies blame. You have accepted that the way a women dresses does not increase the chances of her being raped, but rape is sexual assault.

 

What sort of sexual assault are you talking about? If it's merely chants of "get yer ***s out for t'lads" from the braindead, then I am tempted to agree, because I have witnessed this behaviour for myself. But then these girls could possibly not care. However, if you are talking about sexual violence, then I am skeptical of the claim.

 

These girls dress this way because they want to, and that's all that matters. For some it's a bit of fun, for some it's liberating, even empowering. I suspect it is the latter that some men have a problem with.

[Alien]

I don't know how many times I'll have to say it, but here goes again-

 

WOMEN ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY ATTACK ON THEMSELVES EVEN IF THEY WALK DOWN A STREET STARK NAKED ON A SATURDAY NIGHT WITH HOARDS OF DRUNKEN MEN LEERING

 

But now lets get back to reality, the woman above would be far more likely to be sexually harassed / assaulted than a woman in a trouser suit.]

 

That's not really relevant. I've already stated that a rapist wouldn't take any notice of what the victim was wearing, they're criminals..

 

Eh, you need to read all this. I've already said Rapist don't care what the woman is wearing.

 

Surely the following two comments after the first would suggest that not only women should dress appropriatly but they should dress to appear male also? a double whammy! Men also rape men too, maybe the male victim should have worn "slut" clothes?

 

Unless she has a gun to your head and makes it clear she'll pull the trigger if you don't oblige then the responsibility is on the attacker regardless of what she/he wears.

[Frank Sidney]

Which is evidence of what exactly?

 

You have made the claim that dressing like a 'slut' will increase a woman's chances of being sexually assaulted. Is this just an opinion, or have you actually some evidence for the claim?

 

There seems to be plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

http://www.dpc.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/81678/What_you_can_do_if_you_experience_sexual_assault.pdf

 

Your arguments seem a bit confusing. You are careful to distance your comments from any idea of blame, but as Chris Sleeps points out merely using the word 'should', as the officer did, implies blame. You have accepted that the way a women dresses does not increase the chances of her being raped, but rape is sexual assault.

 

What sort of sexual assault are you talking about? If it's merely chants of "get yer ***s out for t'lads" from the braindead, then I am tempted to agree, because I have witnessed this behaviour for myself. But then these girls could possibly not care. However, if you are talking about sexual violence, then I am skeptical of the claim.

 

These girls dress this way because they want to, and that's all that matters. For some it's a bit of fun, for some it's liberating, even empowering. I suspect it is the latter that some men have a problem with.

 

I'm not talking about rape. Clothing would not come into it. It would happen anyway.

 

Are you a man? If not how do you know how some men think? What do you know what some men say about women, when in the company of other men?

 

It may be about perception. What men perceive a woman dresses in a certain way for. If a woman stood on a street corner at Kelham Island, some men would perceive she was a prostitute. She may be waiting for her husband to pick her up. But some men would pull up and proposition her. Do you think she should alter her behaviour because of the actions of kerb crawlers? Or fight the good fight and carry on regardless?

 

It doesn't make it right that some men think she's a prostitute, but its how they think. This is what this is all about. The men are wrong, but that's the way the cooky crumbles.

 

I don't think it helps to play word games. "Should" is not allowed apparently. If you are a dedicated follower of English language then this is probably right. Apparently if the "should" is exchanged for a "could" this is acceptable to some of the complainants.

 

This debate is more than about the well being of women and the best way to avoid sexual harassment. We're back to the men interfering in women's issues debate.

 

It's all about opinions. I do think that if women dress minimalistic they are more likely to be harassed. That's my opinion.

 

Why do people always demand a link to "some evidence" this will only be somebody else's opinion, that I would still disagree with. My opinion is based on being a man, knowing how some men tick, and the way they behave. I didn't learn it in a book. I learned it through being a man who frequented many a pub and nightclub and mixed with all types of men and women.

 

I am, and always have, been talking about less serious sexual harassment. ie someone touching someone's backside and not a violent rape. Unfortunately, one can lead to the other and I feel if the former is less likely to happen, then the latter becomes even more unlikely.

 

All in all the police officer was trying to help the young women. He may have used the wrong language to satisfy the sandal wearers amongst you. But his aim was to help the women. Cack handed he may have been but I'm sure he doesn't spend hours wringing his hands at someone else's use of the English language.

 

*Disclaimer - Frank Sidney wishes it to be known,

WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY OF DOING ANYTHING WRONG, ITS THE MEN'S FAULT, WOMEN CAN WEAR WHAT THEY WANT.

[Frank Sidney]

Surely the following two comments after the first would suggest that not only women should dress appropriatly but they should dress to appear male also? a double whammy! Men also rape men too, maybe the male victim should have worn "slut" clothes?

 

Unless she has a gun to your head and makes it clear she'll pull the trigger if you don't oblige then the responsibility is on the attacker regardless of what she/he wears.

 

I don't really understand that. It doesn't make much sense. One feels you are grasping at straws, so I won't dignify it with any sort of response, oops I've responded!

[Cyclone]

It's all about opinions. I do think that if women dress minimalistic they are more likely to be harassed. That's my opinion.

Even if that is true (and I don't know if it is or isn't), telling women that they should stop dressing like a slut is incredibly offensive and wrong.

You don't see a problem with characterising women who dress up to go out as 'dressing like sluts' or that this might represent an attitude problem towards women? Or indeed that it implies that they are at fault for being harassed?

[quisquose]

Before I post a detailed reply, I just want to note that in post #115 there is not one mention of "attack" or "assault", but the repeated use of the word "harassment", which is different.

 

Most of us that have been in disagreement with you have assumed you meant "assault" when you said "assault", and I have already conceded to the possibility of "harassment" in #113.

 

But then you say the following, "I am, and always have, been talking about less serious sexual harassment. ie someone touching someone's backside and not a violent rape. Unfortunately, one can lead to the other and I feel if the former is less likely to happen, then the latter becomes even more unlikely".

 

This is a claim that the way a woman dresses can lead to rape, which is what you have repeatedly denied.

 

Oh, I am a man btw.

[Alien]

I'm not talking about rape. Clothing would not come into it. It would happen anyway.

 

Are you a man? If not how do you know how some men think? What do you know what some men say about women, when in the company of other men?

 

It may be about perception. What men perceive a woman dresses in a certain way for. If a woman stood on a street corner at Kelham Island, some men would perceive she was a prostitute. She may be waiting for her husband to pick her up. But some men would pull up and proposition her. Do you think she should alter her behaviour because of the actions of kerb crawlers? Or fight the good fight and carry on regardless?

 

It doesn't make it right that some men think she's a prostitute, but its how they think. This is what this is all about. The men are wrong, but that's the way the cooky crumbles.

 

I don't think it helps to play word games. "Should" is not allowed apparently. If you are a dedicated follower of English language then this is probably right. Apparently if the "should" is exchanged for a "could" this is acceptable to some of the complainants.

 

This debate is more than about the well being of women and the best way to avoid sexual harassment. We're back to the men interfering in women's issues debate.

 

It's all about opinions. I do think that if women dress minimalistic they are more likely to be harassed. That's my opinion.

 

Why do people always demand a link to "some evidence" this will only be somebody else's opinion, that I would still disagree with. My opinion is based on being a man, knowing how some men tick, and the way they behave. I didn't learn it in a book. I learned it through being a man who frequented many a pub and nightclub and mixed with all types of men and women.

 

I am, and always have, been talking about less serious sexual harassment. ie someone touching someone's backside and not a violent rape. Unfortunately, one can lead to the other and I feel if the former is less likely to happen, then the latter becomes even more unlikely.

 

All in all the police officer was trying to help the young women. He may have used the wrong language to satisfy the sandal wearers amongst you. But his aim was to help the women. Cack handed he may have been but I'm sure he doesn't spend hours wringing his hands at someone else's use of the English language.

 

*Disclaimer - Frank Sidney wishes it to be known,

WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY OF DOING ANYTHING WRONG, ITS THE MEN'S FAULT, WOMEN CAN WEAR WHAT THEY WANT.

 

That's the whole point Frank..thought or acting on your thoughts. How many times have you thought of killing someone or some such? You know you were never going to do it but you thought it never the less. You wouldn't dream of divulging your thoughts because that would be inappropriate and make you look a little dumb. Thoughts are fine, they do no harm, once you utter a word it then becomes an action because you've shared it. The officer clearly wasn't thinking...but you're right some don't think but that's no excuse for accusing the tree huggers (thinkers) of doing? One might suggest that you now advocate the actions of non thinkers because of the actions of thinkers.

 

Wrap up or you'll get molested.

or

I suggest you wear appropriate clothing in future. ..equates to one thing no matter how you word it.

[Alien]

I don't really understand that. It doesn't make much sense. One feels you are grasping at straws, so I won't dignify it with any sort of response, oops I've responded!

 

What is it that isn't clear?

 

You suggest that by wearing a trouser suit it would give the appearance of looking male. In effect you're not only condoning a change of clothing but an appeared change of sex.

 

Then you followed on with this.....

 

"That's not really relevant. I've already stated that a rapist wouldn't take any notice of what the victim was wearing, they're criminals.."

 

You getting others to understand you seems to be a task as you seem to contradict is all.

[Frank Sidney]

Even if that is true (and I don't know if it is or isn't), telling women that they should stop dressing like a slut is incredibly offensive and wrong.

You don't see a problem with characterising women who dress up to go out as 'dressing like sluts' or that this might represent an attitude problem towards women? Or indeed that it implies that they are at fault for being harassed?

 

I feel that is different debate. I'm not talking about analysing every word he says. I agreed with him that less clothes means more likely to be harrassed / assaulted..

[Alien]

Even if that is true (and I don't know if it is or isn't), telling women that they should stop dressing like a slut is incredibly offensive and wrong.

You don't see a problem with characterising women who dress up to go out as 'dressing like sluts' or that this might represent an attitude problem towards women? Or indeed that it implies that they are at fault for being harassed?

 

 

Well..not being sensitive to the thoughts of others and maybe having a low command of the English language is good enough for all to lower their standards because of a fear of becoming labelled tree huggers.