"Slutwalks" in N. America

[quisquose]

Don't be ridiculous - it's perfectly clear what's being said.

You have posted words, which YOU said, in a quotation box with MY name on it. It's perfectly clear what mysogynistic words are being said, I just don't care for my name being attributed to them. If you could have been kind enough to have checked back, and simply edited for clarity I would have been grateful.

A. We don't live in a healthy or civilised society.

I hope when our descendants compare this society with theirs in the future your statement proves to be true, but compared to most societies in history and geography currently we’re not too bad. However, the point is that I hope we can become a healthier society. The views of the Canadian police officer, the judge who let off the rapist, and you, are detrimental to that goal. The burqa is the inevitable result of such prehistoric views.

C. As for evidence - you accept that the way you dress will alter the way people perceive and react to you. You further accept (I assume) that the "she was dressed as a slut - she was asking for it" pseudo-defence" is used in rape cases. From this we can build the working assumption that slutty clothing and the impression it gave was an element of what drew the perpetrator to his victim. If this were not the case then clothing would not be a part of the pseudo-defence - unless of course you think it was an after the event rationalisation which seems extremely unlikely. Now of course this isn't evidence that manner of clothing plays a direct role in drawing a rapist to his victim but is a reasonable working theory that it may be a risk factor. Now given the potential dire outcome isn't it more reasonable to offer advice based on a working theory than no advice at all?

This would appear to be your argument in a nutshell.

 

Why do you think that the use of the “pseudo-defence” of “she was asking for it” is evidence of risk in itself? You may as well argue that keeping a stash of porn is a risk factor in your daughter being murdered, so don’t buy porn.

 

Why do you think that the use of the “pseudo-defence” as an after the event rationalisation is so unlikely that you even italicised the word extremely? I think it’s very likely. Most criminals like to rationalise their behaviour, and most defence lawyers like to mitigate blame.

 

If you think it’s a risk, then you are fully entitled to advise your female family members and friends how to dress as much as you want to, and they are entitled to ignore it. However, in the absence of any evidence I think it is dangerous advice for society as a whole when its official representatives dish out this misogynistic nonsense.

Ahhh the rolly-eyes. Final resort of the person who has no actual response.

Or the natural response to such a poor analogy as your breast feeding one was.

Oh and I notice that you haven't commented on your incorrect claim that the advice given avoid pickpockets wasn't gender specific. As this was your differentiator as to why that advice on avoiding pick pockets was valid and advice on avoiding rape was not valid are you now going to start a campaign to have that advice removed or accept that it is perfectly valid to give women advice about how it may be possible to avoid rape?

Eh? Yes I have already commented on my “incorrect claim”, and the link you provided that somehow proves it here:

If you cannot tell the difference between the US Embassy advice on avoiding pickpockets, and the police officer's advice to women to avoid being raped then I will tell you.

 

Only one advice is given to everybody equally, irrespective of sex, and is based on actual evidence of reducing risk. Only one advice is capable of reducing risk, whilst the other might actually increase it by perpetuating the misogynistic lie that blame can be apportioned, and planting the idea in the minds of potential offenders that some women are "asking for it".

The article you linked to said “Ladies look after your purses, gentlemen look after your wallets” or words to that effect. Do you really think that that is gender specific in the same manner as telling women, and only women, how to dress to avoid being raped?

[esme]

if a man walked down the road on a hot sunny day wearing nothing but shorts and sandals would they be "asking for it" ?

 

or is this measure of what you are wearing meaning you are "asking for it" something that only applies to women ?

[Frank Sidney]

if a man walked down the road on a hot sunny day wearing nothing but shorts and sandals would they be "asking for it" ?

 

or is this measure of what you are wearing meaning you are "asking for it" something that only applies to women ?

 

That's the whole point. Some people would think that he was. You're confusing what is the proper assumption to what some deluded people might think.

 

Its not a matter of what normal people would think, but abnormal people..

[esme]

That's the whole point. Some people would think that he was. You're confusing what is the proper assumption to what some deluded people might think.

 

Its not a matter of what normal people would think, but abnormal people..

 

no I wasn't confusing it, I was illustrating it

 

I agree with you

[Cyclone]

So your claim is that although it is known from many surveys that there is an ingrained opinion in a fairly substantial proportion of the population that it only has any sort of effect on the after the event actions of the defence lawyer - and now you admit rapist and have added the jury. I'm not missing the point you are making but is so wildly irrational I'm not sure why you are trying to make it.

Being an opinion doesn't make it a reality. It does make it useful as a defence though. A simple point which you seem to be trying to misunderstand very hard.

 

As an aside I do not believe that dressing in a slutty manner excuses rapist. Your predilection for leaping to unfounded "conclusions" is coming to the fore again.

Your continuing argument would seem to suggest otherwise, I don't think I made any more than a small leap.

 

 

 

From Farris et al Sexual coercion and the misperception of sexual intent.

 

 

 

From Cassidy and Hurrell The influence of victim's attire on adolescents' judgments of date rape.

 

 

 

 

 

But not a factor in a rapists choice of victim - can you not see how irrational your point of view is?

No. Can you not see the point I'm trying to make?

 

 

When you claimed that my use of the word slutty meant wearing "nice" clothing for a date then yes you were wildly misinterpreting it...

You have refused to define what it means about a dozen times, maybe you can do so now to avoid me misinterpreting it again?

 

 

Nope - it simply means rape by an acquaintance who can be a friend, associate, dating partner or someone they have just picked up at a social event.

 

 

 

I'm not sure where you are getting "justify blaming women for being attacked" from. Once again the argument I'm making laid out simply (again) so that you can follow it "twists and turns"

 

1. It is known that in a fair chunk of the population if you wear slutty / tarty clothing then you will be percieved as being desirous of sex.

 

2. If you wear this type of clothing then you will be more likely to attract the attention of people who are "cruising for sex"

 

3. As some of these people will also be of the "no means yes" persuasion as the two opinions ("she was asking for it" and "no means yes") are not mutually exclusive then if you wear slutty / tarty clothing you may increase your chances of attraction the attentions of such a person.

 

Quite straightforward really isn't it? And nowhere does it blame women I am talking about vulnerability not about culpability.

Simple, but it requires several assumptions to be made which you won't or can't support.

 

 

Who said "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimised" once again talking about vulnerability not culpability.

Talking about vulnerability, in a misogynistic offensive way. And I thought we'd already established that the giving of such 'advice' allows for blame to be cast if the 'advice' is ignored.

 

 

Congratulations on your attempt to move from misogynist to arrogant snob!

lol, pot, kettle.

 

 

 

So how you dress necessarily reflects who you are and how you act? I hope you never find yourself in a fancy dress party it could be far too much for your tiny mind to take in.

It doesn't of course. But if I say you are dressed like a Richard, then the implication is that you are a Richard, unless you're at a fancy dress party just pretending to be a Richard. Or do you disagree with that as well?

 

You're argument veers between unsupported assumptions and deliberately ignoring the implications of statements whilst attacking me personally several times for objecting to calling womens clothing slutty.

I think you need to take a step back and calm down.

[Frank Sidney]

no I wasn't confusing it, I was illustrating it

 

I agree with you

 

Ok, at least someone does!

 

I've tested the theory by mincing up and down Fargate this afternoon in my hot pants.

 

I didn't get anything. An old drunk threw a bottle at me, but that's about it..

[danot]

It's naïve to think that is it?

Yes it is. There are some seriously nasty individuals out there who couldn't give a rats ass about your rights, my rights or anyone's rights.

 

Should they give a rats ass?... In my personal opinion they should, but unfortunately for me, and for you it would seem they don't give a flying aardvark about what anyone else might think.

 

It would be naive of me to expect everyone to treat me with the same level of respect as I show them. It''ll never happen Cyclone. Human nature won't allow it. The law does not, 'cannot' provide any protection against human nature. Prevention is always the best policy.

[ronthenekred]

Yes it is. There are some seriously nasty individuals out there who couldn't give a rats ass about your rights, my rights or anyone's rights.

 

Should they give a rats ass?... In my personal opinion they should, but unfortunately for me, and for you it would seem they don't give a flying aardvark about what anyone else might think.

 

It would be naive of me to expect everyone to treat me with the same level of respect as I show them. It''ll never happen Cyclone. Human nature won't allow it. The law does not, 'cannot' provide any protection against human nature. Prevention is always the best policy.

 

You still haven't explained what prevention is. How does a woman prevent herself from being raped?

[danot]

Where do "rights" play a part in "prevention"?

I don't know.

 

Posted by ronthenekred

Are you suggesting that all women dress like Nora Batty so as to avoid being attacked?

No.

 

I'm saying that women who like to wear next to nothing in order to feel sexy(and this is why they do it, don't listen to any other nonsense they tell you)should be more aware that doing so sexualises them. Men aren't sexualising them.. the women are doing it to themselves.

 

Granted, not all women do it. Just as not all men shout abuse at them or attack them, but some do.

 

They can wear whatever they want for me, I love to leer. I just wish they'd give over whining about being treated like a sexual object when they quite clearly want to be seen that way.

[Harleyman]

Ok, at least someone does!

 

I've tested the theory by mincing up and down Fargate this afternoon in my hot pants.

 

I didn't get anything. An old drunk threw a bottle at me, but that's about it..

 

 

 

You would have had much more luck if you'd done the same in West Hollywood.

That's if the plane fare, hotel and food were worth loud whistles and suggestive comments