Halibut Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 these kind of crimes will increase, regardless of attempts at education. What makes you so sure of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms Macbeth Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 If as you claim there are "extremists in all sections of society" where are all the violent Jains? The unpleasant fact is that some ideologies such as fascism and Islam seem to produce more than their fair share of violent adherents whereas others such as Jainism do just the opposite. In fact the more extreme a Jain gets the more peaceful they are in stark contrast "extreme" Muslims are all too often violent. Which is hardly surprising when you consider that that Islam was was founded by a military leader and his willingness to use force unsurprisingly found it's way into the ideology he devised. I respect your point of view, and I've now learnt something by reading about Jains. Thank you. Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant very well in earlier posts. Simply put, I believe that some people, due to ignorance, or lack of eduation, or their extremist beliefs behave in ways that are abhorrent to most of us. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, violent and offensive behaviour isn't limited to the Muslim community. I'm not involved in any organised religion, neither do I profess to have a great understanding of different religions, but I've been around people for a long time. My view of religious extremists who use violence is simple. Is see them as the same as other organised groups who use violence to carry out hate crimes, whether they be because of the race, disability, or sexuality of the victims. The perpetrators appear to lack the ability to think for themselves, and have skewed perceptions about their 'cause' whatever it may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andikay Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I respect your point of view, and I've now learnt something by reading about Jains. Thank you. Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant very well in earlier posts. Simply put, I believe that some people, due to ignorance, or lack of eduation, or their extremist beliefs behave in ways that are abhorrent to most of us. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, violent and offensive behaviour isn't limited to the Muslim community. I'm not involved in any organised religion, neither do I profess to have a great understanding of different religions, but I've been around people for a long time. My view of religious extremists who use violence is simple. Is see them as the same as other organised groups who use violence to carry out hate crimes, whether they be because of the race, disability, or sexuality of the victims. The perpetrators appear to lack the ability to think for themselves, and have skewed perceptions about their 'cause' whatever it may be. I’m not convinced by your argument that they can’t think for themselves. Mohammad Sidique Khan, 30, Edgware Road bomber A married father-of-one and teaching assistant, Mohammad Sidique Khan was the oldest of the bombers and is thought to have taken the lead role. Shehzad Tanweer, 22, Aldgate bomber Shehzad Tanweer was born in Bradford but lived most of his life in the Beeston area of Leeds. Neighbours described the sports science graduate as a "nice lad" who could "get on with anyone". Friends said he was very religious, but did not express an interest in politics. What little research there is suggests that these suicide bombers have no appreciable psychopathology and are at least as well-off and well-educated as the surrounding populations. The suicide bomber tends to be older, better-educated, more widely travelled and well-read, and more sophisticated than those populations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melthebell Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share Posted May 30, 2011 It is not the religion itself but the peoples own interpretation of the religion. that is religion though. There is no one true Islam, only interpretations of Islam. But somebody's religion is their own interpretation of it, everybody's is different. Their interpretation, your interpretation, my interpretation (when I had one) is still religion. The people are the religion; there is no religion without the people. EXACTLY but certain people on here CONSISTANTLY denounce the religion as evil, when all along ive said its PEOPLE that bastadise it for their own ends some people interperate it moderately, some people go over the top, its the extreme end ones that need targetting NOT the rest, when you target the whole religion as one due to the extremists you do nothing but alienate the more moderate people and the dangerous part is they may get angry and start moving more towards the extreme end in retaliation as they feel threatened and hated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andikay Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 EXACTLY but certain people on here CONSISTANTLY denounce the religion as evil, when all along ive said its PEOPLE that bastadise it for their own ends some people interperate it moderately, some people go over the top, its the extreme end ones that need targetting NOT the rest, when you target the whole religion as one due to the extremists you do nothing but alienate the more moderate people and the dangerous part is they may get angry and start moving more towards the extreme end in retaliation as they feel threatened and hated I think for the most part it is the Islamic or religious extremists that are targeted by forum members. There may be occasions when there is a difference of opinion about what is defined as extremist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esme Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Mod Note Posts have been removed for bickering, along with all quotes, please keep it civil or the thread will be closed and further action may be taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melthebell Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share Posted May 30, 2011 I think for the most part it is the Islamic or religious extremists that are targeted by forum members. There may be occasions when there is a difference of opinion about what is defined as extremist. no, generally i believe its islam as a whole when they denounce islam as evil when they talk about muslims do this or did that to me thats lumping the whole of islam together its what gets me with the edl they say they are targetting extremists.........but when you have placards on pictures that just says "no more mosques" when your choosing to march and chant through any muslim areas not just areas known for large extremist pockets then to me that smacks of islamophobia in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andikay Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 no, generally i believe its islam as a whole when they denounce islam as evil when they talk about muslims do this or did that to me thats lumping the whole of islam together its what gets me with the edl they say they are targetting extremists.........but when you have placards on pictures that just says "no more mosques" when your choosing to march and chant through any muslim areas not just areas known for large extremist pockets then to me that smacks of islamophobia in general The EDL or BNP see and hear about things that Muslims do, they don’t hear about the good things just the bad things, and they can’t target individuals who are extremist because they don’t know who they are, just that they are here. They see no way of removing the extremist from our society so probably feel they have no choice but to target all Muslims. I do however think that the majority of SF members that appear to be anti Muslim are probably just anti extremist Muslim; it’s just easier to say Muslim or Islam than keep putting extremist in front. It does help the situation when some members that may be Muslims defend the extremist side of Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I am only using another angle- as per my point above that these guys could use any excuse they wanted to. They can ride on the religion train but it does not justify their actions.It does to them, that's why they did it. What, they don't exist? You know history has a lot to say about that and some atheists today hold extremist views that are almost level with religious extremists. yeah sure. Of course there are religious disagreements- scholars are not perfect just because they may have studied for donkey years- but there are scientific disagreements. People disagree on hundreds of things in life- religious or not.What sort of a response is this? You are refuting a claim I have not made. You claimed that they could not have possibly been inspired by Islamic sources. I pointed out that there is disagreement amongst Islamic scholars as to what the correct things to believe to demonstrate that your 'they aren't true muslims' line is nonsense. Not every Muslims believes the same things, these men interpreted Islam differently to you, your version is no more valid or Islamic than theirs. My main point is this, and it is one that the judge in this case happened to agree with: The main motivation for these crimes was religious. And this crime would not have been committed if the men who committed it had not been religious. Do you disagree with those two statements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azazel666 Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 whats it matter? is 5 years not enough? people done for hate crime HAVE been done for less time No 5 years is not enough. Stoning might be enough. What's five years for their actions compared to the beating of the young man who did......nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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