Iuchi_Zien Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 No, that would be "Won't allow them to". Shouldn't is a statement about how they should behave without it having to be enforced. People shouldn't do things they can't finance themselves, that includes having children they can't afford. Obviously the safety net should still be there because circumstances can and do change unexpectedly, but to deliberately have a child that you know you cannot afford is selfish and people shouldn't do it. Which is why the talk about stopping child benefits/ or cutting child benefits to the 'feckless'? Out of curiosity which is more selfish, having a child or seeing that child grow up deprived because you disapprove of the parents? Because cutting/stopping benefits to the 'feckless' will impact the child before it does the parent. Do you think that anybody contemplating having a child to improve their 'income' is not going to pass those cuts to the children before themselves? There will always be selfish [word of your choice] out there so how are you going to stop them? By punishing everybody else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeX Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 there is a sense of entitlement in this country that is the cause of many of our problems. the country doesn't owe you anything, it is your job to provide for a child if you choose to bring one into the world. if you cannot, you should think very hard about what kind of life and start in the world you will give the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I believe that I acknowledged on page 1 or 2 that cutting child benefit punishes the innocent children as much as the irresponsible parents. But that isn't the point I'm arguing, so that's okay. I was arguing against your objection to the statement that people shouldn't have children they can't afford, something you believe is their right, presumably alongside their right to have the state support their decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuchi_Zien Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 there is a sense of entitlement in this country that is the cause of many of our problems. the country doesn't owe you anything, it is your job to provide for a child if you choose to bring one into the world. if you cannot, you should think very hard about what kind of life and start in the world you will give the child. Yes so let's go back to the dark ages with old people and children dying in the street because our 'civilized' society thinks that it doesn't owe the individual anything. Isn't that exactly what the Irish potato famine was about. The state does not have a duty to prevent people who due to a combination of bad luck and their own ineptitude from starving (words used by MP's of the period). If they are truly starving then they have the option of the work-house (again comment of the period). Is that the society and state we want to bring back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llamatron Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Yes so let's go back to the dark ages with old people and children dying in the street because our 'civilized' society thinks that it doesn't owe the individual anything. Isn't that exactly what the Irish potato famine was about. The state does not have a duty to prevent people who due to a combination of bad luck and their own ineptitude from starving (words used by MP's of the period). If they are truly starving then they have the option of the work-house (again comment of the period). Is that the society and state we want to bring back? see, surely reading that back you should realise the importance of reading something then commenting on it, rather than getting in a tizz because you have read it wrong:hihi: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuchi_Zien Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I believe that I acknowledged on page 1 or 2 that cutting child benefit punishes the innocent children as much as the irresponsible parents. But that isn't the point I'm arguing, so that's okay. I was arguing against your objection to the statement that people shouldn't have children they can't afford, something you believe is their right, presumably alongside their right to have the state support their decision. Having a country where deprivation of children is acceptable is wrong. Children should not be punished because of their parents, even the children of the 'feckless'. There is/will always be those who chose to abuse the system, any system. The sign of a civilized society is it's willingness NOT to punish the innocent because of those abuses. I have a friend whose child was an unplanned accident. Him and his wife are one of the best parents I've ever met. Their child is bright well adjusted and will be a credit to the society which gave that child a 'leg up'. That is an investment. If he hadn't had that leg up he would possibly be one of the dozens of 'feral' kids I see wandering round costing society far more than the investment made on my friends child. Who wants to bet how many of those feral kids parents are at work, bearing in mind I'm S10 not Manor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB23 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Child benefit should be means teasted. But I do sometimes think that even though the benefit is meant for the children, ie buying nappies, clothes, food etc, how much do some kids ever see of it and of course you can't take it away but how do you get around that? When the kid sees nothing and the parents booze of smoke it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuchi_Zien Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Child benefit should be means teasted. But I do sometimes think that even though the benefit is meant for the children, ie buying nappies, clothes, food etc, how much do some kids ever see of it and of course you can't take it away but how do you get around that? When the kid sees nothing and the parents booze of smoke it up? You can't get around it or away from it. You have to accept that a small minority will always be around to abuse the system. That should NEVER be used as an excuse to punish the innocent. You just have to hope that whatever the parents capabilities the children grow up better than their parents. That is the investment we make towards the next generation. We will make sure you have better chances than we had and we expect you to do the same for the next generation. Without that we might as well go back to the dark ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llamatron Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 You can't get around it or away from it. You have to accept that a small minority will always be around to abuse the system. That should NEVER be used as an excuse to punish the innocent. You just have to hope that whatever the parents capabilities the children grow up better than their parents. That is the investment we make towards the next generation. We will make sure you have better chances than we had and we expect you to do the same for the next generation. Without that we might as well go back to the dark ages. don't you think that teaching a child not to bother trying because the state will sort you out is a terrible lesson that will harm the child. A balance is required of course to understand that you need to see the world in grayscale and being as you somehow bought the nazis into this I don't think you will understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzo77 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 If clearly from the get go the parents expect the state to pay for its upbringing of the child. Which clearly there are people that do expect that, then im not sure they do. Starting a family is a lifestyle choice and not a god given right. There are many things in life that id like but i wouldn't expect the state to go pay for them. There is a system already in place to help parents bring their children up. It's not like people are asking for money that doesn't exist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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