quisquose Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I see what you're saying, however, my argument, Plek, is the normalisation, mainstreaming and claims of 'harmless fun' of these types of pseudo-sex venues where breasts (and arse in the case of Playboy) are clearly how they are marketed along with the image of the sexed up servile woman, whether that be Hooters or Playboy. They validate the notion of women are playthings, adornments and whose raison d'etre is to be in servitude to men and this has a knock on effect on wider society. I personally do not buy the 'no one is forcing them to do it' or 'it's their choice' arguments to justify their existence, regardless of whether or not it is a choice. I'm not undermining sex work as a valid choice at all, just highlighting how superficially it may not be what it seems. I base this on having spoken to numerous sex workers over the years, through various lines of work and research, however, I appreciate that they will not speak for all women working in the industry. I'm not sure that I agree with the abortion analogy, for a variety of reasons which haven't time to enumerate (school run beckons). However, I am in totally agreement with you about the inherent contradictions in some schools of feminist thinking. I'll never ever be part of the anti-prostitution/porn brigade and those who were/are anti-the pill and abortion I will never understand and have argued with them till I am blue in the face. The feminist movement is certainly one where people can quite justifiably call themselves a feminist, and yet hardly agree with anything. For what it's worth, I think my opinions are pretty close to Plek's, but they are also close to yours, and listening to where the grey area lies I think I'm getting to understand the reasons for the differences. I absolutely agree with you about the "normalisation, mainstreaming" of women as sex objects, that that is the real issue. Whilst I am sure we will agree on most situations where the line has been crossed, and I now think Hooters crossed that line, I don't think that most lap-dancing clubs do, precisely because I put them in the same bracket as prostitution and porn. The girls that work there aren't "mainstreaming" their sexuality in public, they're satisfying the demand of a specific market that is already, and will always be, there. They work freelance, work in private, can earn good money. Speak to some of the girls, as I have with a couple, and you might find them quite a bit more empowered by their jobs than a lot of other employees. Quite surprisingly I found the two that I spoke to say that they had a lot of respect for their customers, but then I say that about ours! The Playboy Club? Blah. I don't know. I accept Cyclone's observation that the protests were not about the club per se, but the wider issues of "mainstreaming" so fully support them. As for the Playboy brand. I must listen to this later: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011c239/Thinking_Allowed_Playboy_Celebrity_politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Sidney Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote=Suffragette1; That makes me love Hugh and his lovely empire even more. What about clubs like these. Do you think the customers are wrong and the club should be closed down? http://jezebel.com/5749449/the-best-documentary-about-black-lesbian-strip-clubs-youll-see-today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Sidney Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 or this... http://caribbeanfever.com/forum/index.php?topic=1907.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrod Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I don't know, ask one of them. I suspect that they know that they're very attractive (otherwise why put themselves forward for the job?) and don't need to be leered at by someone paying to be served by them to boost their egos/self esteem. Ironically, many of them will most likely have self esteem issues and be chronically inescure which will be fuelled by this type of work. I expect that most of these women sneer at their clientele behind their backs and probably have a lower opinion of them than the men who patronise these joints have of the women who work there. This mutual contempt is a further irony.If they know they're attractive and chose the job, and nobody is making them do it under duress, why should any third party be concerned/bothered/sticking their nose in? I wouldn't refer to women who work in the sex industry as bimbos either.There are less kind terms available, but I wouldn't expect them to be well received around the SF wimmin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John X Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Speak to some of the girls, as I have with a couple, and you might find them quite a bit more empowered by their jobs than a lot of other employees. And conversely, working in the entertainment industry I often come across a lot of young women who work in 'promotions' and one thing they absolutely hate is having to dress up as bunnies or anything else that involves them getting their tits and arse out. Even those without a political thought in their head realise they are just being used as 'meat' to sell things to people (usually blokes) and the fake smile comes off as rapidly as it goes on once they've finished! John X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffragette1 Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 The feminist movement is certainly one where people can quite justifiably call themselves a feminist, and yet hardly agree with anything. For what it's worth, I think my opinions are pretty close to Plek's, but they are also close to yours, and listening to where the grey area lies I think I'm getting to understand the reasons for the differences. I absolutely agree with you about the "normalisation, mainstreaming" of women as sex objects, that that is the real issue. Whilst I am sure we will agree on most situations where the line has been crossed, and I now think Hooters crossed that line, I don't think that most lap-dancing clubs do, precisely because I put them in the same bracket as prostitution and porn. The girls that work there aren't "mainstreaming" their sexuality in public, they're satisfying the demand of a specific market that is already, and will always be, there. They work freelance, work in private, can earn good money. Speak to some of the girls, as I have with a couple, and you might find them quite a bit more empowered by their jobs than a lot of other employees. Quite surprisingly I found the two that I spoke to say that they had a lot of respect for their customers, but then I say that about ours! The Playboy Club? Blah. I don't know. I accept Cyclone's observation that the protests were not about the club per se, but the wider issues of "mainstreaming" so fully support them. As for the Playboy brand. I must listen to this later: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011c239/Thinking_Allowed_Playboy_Celebrity_politics Spot on that summarises my thinking. I agree with you totally about the distinctions between lap dancing/strip bars, porn and prostitution. and the more 'acceptable face' of the selling of sex in the Hooters and Playboy type establishments. For me, Playboy crosses the liin especially when its logo is ubiquitous and used on kiddie merchandise as well as porn products and is a global porn empire, both soft and hard core. You've summed it up far better than me. Dragging my hairy armpits off to the gym now, look forward to more debate later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyfriday Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 The feminist movement is certainly one where people can quite justifiably call themselves a feminist, and yet hardly agree with anything. For what it's worth, I think my opinions are pretty close to Plek's, but they are also close to yours, and listening to where the grey area lies I think I'm getting to understand the reasons for the differences. I absolutely agree with you about the "normalisation, mainstreaming" of women as sex objects, that that is the real issue. Whilst I am sure we will agree on most situations where the line has been crossed, and I now think Hooters crossed that line, I don't think that most lap-dancing clubs do, precisely because I put them in the same bracket as prostitution and porn. The girls that work there aren't "mainstreaming" their sexuality in public, they're satisfying the demand of a specific market that is already, and will always be, there. They work freelance, work in private, can earn good money. Speak to some of the girls, as I have with a couple, and you might find them quite a bit more empowered by their jobs than a lot of other employees. Quite surprisingly I found the two that I spoke to say that they had a lot of respect for their customers, but then I say that about ours! The Playboy Club? Blah. I don't know. I accept Cyclone's observation that the protests were not about the club per se, but the wider issues of "mainstreaming" so fully support them. As for the Playboy brand. I must listen to this later: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011c239/Thinking_Allowed_Playboy_Celebrity_politics With you there quisquose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffragette1 Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 In all seriousness, I think a well presented woman will get more credit and people will listen more to them than the old image of feminists, which frankly were media led anyway. Millie tant springs to mind for me with the old school image. Having met Suffy I can say she isn't anything like the old school feminists and takes great pride in her appearance and for some reason I was shocked. She is smart both in her appearance and her intellect and only speaks up when she knows her apples, or oranges.........or subject matter. Nothing wrong with looking good and being a feminist is there? Maybe some people prefer to think of them as being dungaree wearers with locked up hair and hairy arm pits as it makes them easier to dismiss. Er, thank you Fishcake. I think it confuses people when you can't be so neatly pigeon-holed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyman Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hasn't Chippendales arrived in the UK yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celeb Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hasn't Chippendales arrived in the UK yet? Yeah but us blokes dont care. This is just something else women feel the need to moan and whinge about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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