rubydazzler Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Your post suggests that it probably is! John X Masterly!! I salute you, sir! Seven little words to completely demolish a specious argument. Oh, for such brevity to be given to us all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I just wanted to get your name up in lights, not that particular quote, so I've deleted it all. You seem to have a lot to say about this, so I'm particularly interested in your thoughts. I'm interested in why other people think there is such widespread misogyny, disrespect, denigration and just downright horribleness against women, by both men and women? I can almost understand it coming from the much older generations, in their late 70s and above, because they were brainwashed from birth. But young women making adverse comments about looks and that they don't need feminism anymore? Where does that come from, do they know nothing about the past? Do they imagine they'll always have the beauty of the young animal? My gut feeling is that it HAS to have something to do with the way women are objectified, perceived as being willing to exchange their bodies for money, and therefore, not just those in the sex industry, but ALL women should be willing to do so. That women should be some sort of property, body servant, baby machine or sex machine, totally at the whim of some man or another. If we don't like the idea, we have to be coerced, shamed or beaten into submission, either by words or fists, in extreme cases. Those days are over, or they should be, we aren't property anymore. As I pointed out earlier there are societies today in which women are effectively property (the areas of Afghanistan under the Taliban, Saudi Arabia...) these are societies in which standards that anti-sex feminists demand as regards the pictorial representation of women are met & exceeded. To the hilarious extent of colouring in Katy Perry CD covers with felt tips. Furthermore many of the developments which anti-sex feminists find so upsetting such as "pornogrification" of mainstream culture have occurred when by pretty much any measure the position of women in our society has massively improved. All this suggests to me that this is one of the many occasions when thinking with your bowels just doesn't work. On this point at least radical feminists quality of thought is on the pitifully low level of the religious right whom they have on occasion foolishly allied with to try and restrict freedom of expression. They simply have a 'gut feeling' that strip clubs, porn... is wrong, look at other things in society they think are wrong (rape, sexual harassment... for radical feminists, promiscuity, divorce, abortion, homosexuality... for the religious right) and assume that the latter is the blame for the former. I simply think that if you engage with the situation attempting to dispassionately use your brain them a causative link between depictions of women which unsettle you and things you don't like in society such as "widespread misogyny, disrespect, denigration and just downright horribleness against women, by both men and women" is anything but clear. I don't know exactly why "there is such widespread misogyny, disrespect, denigration and just downright horribleness against women, by both men and women" but my inability to be able to explain all this doesn't mean that your gut feeling wins by default. Especially not when the evidence I outlined above so strongly suggests that there isn't even a strong correlation between a thriving sex industry 'pornogrification' and unpleasant things happening to women. I'm a feminist an a liberal the former of course means that I strongly believe in gender equality, the latter means that amongst other things I demand high standards of evidence before supporting any attempt to use the coercive power of the state. Even if as in this case this coercion is supposed to be in aid of an end I strongly believe in. If we think it's not true that men somehow need to be able to have places where they can have some random nubile female shaking her jubblies in their faces, we're wrong and deserve to be insulted and assumptions made about our sexuality, sense of humour, looks and clothing? There seems to be some sort of assumption that it's a male right to experience this and no-one should try to educate them out of this desire. Why is that? Swan Vesta referred to 'uppity crones' trying to stop him going to a lap dance club, and there have been other similar references too numerous to list. What causes all this animosity? It can even arise on a thread that really has nothing in the topic to instigate it. Didn't their mothers pay them enough attention when they were babies or something? To some extent I think this is due to peoples' tendency to reacted unpleasantly & lash out at those who tell them they shouldn't do something they want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Sidney Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Here's another story for us to ponder. Not even the most hardened feminist could condone a woman suing her employer because she failed a test.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2002610/Woman-inspector-humiliated-failing-riot-test-wins-30k.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 On this point at least radical feminists quality of thought is on the pitifully low level of the religious right whom they have on occasion foolishly allied with to try and restrict freedom of expression. They simply have a 'gut feeling' that strip clubs, porn... is wrong, look at other things in society they think are wrong (rape, sexual harassment... for radical feminists, promiscuity, divorce, abortion, homosexuality... for the religious right) and assume that the latter is the blame for the former. This shallowness of such thought is exemplified by Object which along with Feminista organised the protest which prompted this thread the following is what you get when you clink "The Facts" on their website: "Sex object culture OBJECT is a human rights organisation which challenges ‘sex object culture’ - a culture in which women are increasingly sexualised as sex objects in our media and every day lives. Here are just some statistics related to sex object culture: Over half (54%) of all women around the world say they first became aware of the need to be physically attractive between 6 and 17 years of age (1) Eating disorders are as common amongst women as autism (2) 66% of teenage girls would consider plastic surgery and 20% would do it right now (3) Polls suggest that 63% of young women aspire to be glamour models or lap dancers (4) At every End Violence Against Women Coalition consultation event members have raised the sexualisation of women in the media as a factor in violence against women and girls (5) One in three people believe a woman is responsible for violence committed against her if she is wearing 'revealing clothing' (6) 66% of young people learn about sex and relationships through the media (7) It is long established that the overwhelming portrayal of women as sex objects in society plays a role in maintaining inequality between women and men. This has been recognised at the international level by the United Nations Convention to Eliminate Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) which calls on States to take decisive action to tackle objectification – which it links to stereotypes and prejudices based on gender (. CEDAW has since repeatedly identified (9) the links between the portrayal of women as sex objects by the media and sex industry with attitudes that underpin violence and discrimination against women. In 2008 the UN CEDAW Committee cross-examined the UK to assess its progress in fulfilling CEDAW obligations. On gender stereotyping and the portrayal of women in the media and popular culture it was found that the UK had still not enacted any relevant policies. The committee strongly called for action to be taken by the UK Government (10). The End Violence Against Women Coalition (EVAW) has also repeatedly highlighted (11) the sexualisation of women in the media and popular culture as a 'conducive context' for violence against women and has called for action to tackle this, in particular via the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. " There isn't anything there which even approaches evidence that "sex object culture" is to blame for all the things is society they blame it for. The best they can come up with is simply restating their stating their assumption: "It is long established that the overwhelming portrayal of women as sex objects in society plays a role in maintaining inequality between women and men." and pointing to other groups which agree with Object. If they actually had a slightest bit of good evidence supporting their raison d'être it would be all over Objects website, just as it would have been all over the 'Equality Illusion' (which was written by the co-organiser of the protest) cited by Suffragette1 earlier. If some religious right type posted an argument against comprehensive Sex Ed in schools which boiled down to: "There is comprehensive sex ed in schools Teenagers have sex, contract STI, get pregnant and have abortions It is long established that Sex Ed plays a role in maintaining extra marrital sex, STIs & abortion. Christian Voice agrees with us." Would you accept that as a valid argument? I would hope not. How then can you expect anyone else to accept the exact same reasoning & standards of evidence when applied to 'Objectification' and misogyny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubydazzler Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Thanks plek, I have read it all, even though my eyes started to glaze over towards the end. So, it's a 'no' then? You think the acceptability of the sexual objectification of women and the buying and selling of our bodies isn't in any way attributable to the mainstream acceptance of and desire for the sex industry and porn? Phew, that'll be a relief to many people? I don't agree with a lot of what you say, of course. But then, you wouldn't expect me to, would you? If we hadn't relied on our gut feelings in the 50s and 60s that things were just not right, we'd probably still be living in the kitchen, waiting on our families hand and foot, with no money and no status. 'Cribbed, cabined and confined'. Although I do agree with you that there's a tendency to label unpleasantly anyone who doesn't agree with them, that much is obvious. But they never seem to appreciate that it applies both ways and can very mardy. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply at such length, though. Very illuminating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubydazzler Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 ...Ifreligious right type posted an argument against comprehensive Sex Ed in schools which boiled down to: "There is comprehensive sex ed in schools Teenagers have sex, contract STI, get pregnant and have abortions It is long established that Sex Ed plays a role in maintaining extra marrital sex, STIs & abortion. Christian Voice agrees with us." Would you accept that as a valid argument? I would hope not. How then can you expect anyone else to accept the exact same reasoning & standards of evidence when applied to 'Objectification' and misogyny? Actually, I can see that it might have some merit. From what a lot of kids and parents have told me (bear in mind I have no first hand knowledge) there's a lot 'nuts and bolts' information, practically encouraging kids to experiment, but very little about relationships, withstanding peer pressure, withstanding pressure from 'boyfriends' etc etc. There might be a valid argument that since the introduction of earlier and earlier sex education, along with the constant bombardment of adverts, films, tv, etc, the prevalence of all the conditions you mention has increased relentlessly? I don't know, I have to emphasise that, but there could be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Thanks plek, I have read it all, even though my eyes started to glaze over towards the end. So, it's a 'no' then? You think the acceptability of the sexual objectification of women and the buying and selling of our bodies isn't in any way attributable to the mainstream acceptance of and desire for the sex industry and porn? Phew, that'll be a relief to many people? You have changed your position and misrepresented mine. In your previous post asserted that there was a causitivie link between the sex industry and: "widespread misogyny, disrespect, denigration and just downright horribleness against women," That is the link I denied. Clearly there is a link between "the acceptability of ... the buying and selling of our bodies" and "mainstream acceptance of and desire for the sex industry and porn" as they're effectively two slightly different ways of saying the same thing. I don't agree with a lot of what you say, of course. But then, you wouldn't expect me to, would you? If we hadn't relied on our gut feelings in the 50s and 60s that things were just not right, we'd probably still be living in the kitchen, waiting on our families hand and foot, with no money and no status. 'Cribbed, cabined and confined'. I disagree many/most of the claims of 2nd wave feminists have firm foundations in reason and evidence and the quality of thinking shown by many of the groups involved was far above 'gut level'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Actually, I can see that it might have some merit. From what a lot of kids and parents have told me (bear in mind I have no first hand knowledge) there's a lot 'nuts and bolts' information, practically encouraging kids to experiment, but very little about relationships, withstanding peer pressure, withstanding pressure from 'boyfriends' etc etc. There might be a valid argument that since the introduction of earlier and earlier sex education, along with the constant bombardment of adverts, films, tv, etc, the prevalence of all the conditions you mention has increased relentlessly? I don't know, I have to emphasise that, but there could be? Oh dear, you are wrong here on so many levels. As with the position of women teenage pregnancies, STIs, abortions... are more prevalent in societies (and in the US states) which don't have comprehensive sex ed. There is a negative correlation between the negative outcomes mentioned and comprehensive sex ed. Teenage pregnancies for example have declined across much of the West including the UK since the introduction of sex ed. They did however recently increase in the USA after a decade of widespread Abstinence only Sex Ed brought in under Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubydazzler Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Did I make any assertions at all to be wrong on any level? ... *shakes head* I think you're addling your brain looking for all these links ... and being led miles off topic as well. To be honest, I don't think most girls in my time really knew about any of these things, 2nd wave and groups et cetera, that was all a bit too middle class for us. We just instinctively knew that we weren't being given our due, and started being bolshy with everyone till we got our own way. Which was mainly getting a decent wage and being given the Pill without having to get married first. I'm bored now, so I'm off to FB to post status about it all ... prepare for your ears to start burning soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Did I make any assertions at all to be wrong on any level? ... *shakes head* I think you're addling your brain looking for all these links ... and being led miles off topic as well. "the prevalence of all the conditions you mention has increased relentlessly" As I pointed out this is not the case. As I also pointed out contrary to your argument there is a negative correlation between sex ed and "the prevalence of the conditions mentioned". Just as with "pornogrification" and misogyny the notion that there's a causitive link between sex ed and high levels of abortion is very hard to reconcile with the fact that in each case there is a negative correlation between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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