barleycorn Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Better to catch one than none? Plenty were caught. jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_words Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 Plenty were caught. jb We saw them stood around watching as whole rows of shops burnt to the ground, not letting the fire brigade in even. Why else did these riots spread so much? Because the Police were doing virtually nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Clearly the police do not have several hundred trained officers in full riot gear sat on a shelf 24/7 on the off chance there's going to be a riot, or several riots. On that basis, I doubt they could have done much on the first night. By the following evening/night, they have had some time to react. I do not know the logistics of summoning up a lot of extra police at short notice, but it cannot be easy. Also, in order to robustly defend people and property, they would need a lot of them, working together. The response on the second and third nights looked poor (from my untrained eye), and I felt they should have provided a stronger response. But as I've said above, I do not know how easy/hard it is to manage. I hope the police take a long, hard look at their contingency plans for this type of situation. It is too easy for people to become defensive and defend their actions and the status quo. What it needs is a honest look, without fear of internal reprisals etc, so that any "mistakes" can be avoided in future. I've written it as "mistakes" because some may not have been mistakes at the time. What happened over those few nights was different to any previous events. Just because it may be easy to prepare a plan of action now, with the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't mean it was reasonable to do the same at the time, when it was not known how things would develop. Also, even if the police had the resources to steaming in at the first sign of trouble, and had done so, then we don't know what would have happened. Had they done so and this resulted in one death, the police would be being hauled over the coals for their heavy handed methods. (Even though that might be seen as "better" than the 5 deaths which have occurred, the assumption would be that there would be no deaths. - badly worded, but I'm trying to say that we can never compare outcomes directly, as we only have the one outcome, we can never have 2 to compare, the alternative is only ever a supposition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_words Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 Clearly the police do not have several hundred trained officers in full riot gear sat on a shelf 24/7 on the off chance there's going to be a riot, or several riots. On that basis, I doubt they could have done much on the first night. By the following evening/night, they have had some time to react. I do not know the logistics of summoning up a lot of extra police at short notice, but it cannot be easy. Also, in order to robustly defend people and property, they would need a lot of them, working together. The response on the second and third nights looked poor (from my untrained eye), and I felt they should have provided a stronger response. But as I've said above, I do not know how easy/hard it is to manage. I hope the police take a long, hard look at their contingency plans for this type of situation. It is too easy for people to become defensive and defend their actions and the status quo. What it needs is a honest look, without fear of internal reprisals etc, so that any "mistakes" can be avoided in future. I've written it as "mistakes" because some may not have been mistakes at the time. What happened over those few nights was different to any previous events. Just because it may be easy to prepare a plan of action now, with the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't mean it was reasonable to do the same at the time, when it was not known how things would develop. Also, even if the police had the resources to steaming in at the first sign of trouble, and had done so, then we don't know what would have happened. Had they done so and this resulted in one death, the police would be being hauled over the coals for their heavy handed methods. (Even though that might be seen as "better" than the 5 deaths which have occurred, the assumption would be that there would be no deaths. - badly worded, but I'm trying to say that we can never compare outcomes directly, as we only have the one outcome, we can never have 2 to compare, the alternative is only ever a supposition). It's not what you do, it's the way that you do it... They were too soft until vigilantism started to rise and the government started to shout! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECCOnoob Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 How about some of you people actually support the police who bravely got in there and dealt with the morons smashing up our streets. How about a bit of praise for the court systems who have actioned overtime to process the hundreds of cases and took a tough stance of bail, sentences and remanding people out of the magistrates system and directly into crown court as much as they could within the law. How about a bit of praise for the PM who actually took action in dragging parleament back from their summer jollies and got them back at work again. The PM who also swiftly allowed the police to toughen up their actions and start using more serious tatics and weapons. ......... NO of course its just bitch, whinge, whine and moan about the lack of action and the soft touch. A load of armchair pundits sat on their arses spouting their bile. Are you the same people who not so long ago were all bitching about the "heavy handed" and "wasted resources" during the recent demonstrations??? I cant beleive this topic is even being discussed. The rioters and their supposed parents are the ONLY people where criticism should be aimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampster Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Are you the same people who not so long ago were all bitching about the "heavy handed" and "wasted resources" during the recent demonstrations??? The very same! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_words Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 Are you the same people who not so long ago were all bitching about the "heavy handed" and "wasted resources" during the recent demonstrations??? Oooh no, I fully support the Police, but they could have prevented a lot, a lot earlier by not being so soft... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BettyBooHoo! Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally, I think they should have gone in a lot harder, however they can't because the minute they do, the bleedin do-gooders are on their backs. A few battons to the crust would have put them off. Rubber bullets wouldn't have gone a miss either. What's the point of having a police force if they can't apply any force? No wonder these riots took place and esculated like they did when people think they are untouchable by the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_words Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally, I think they should have gone in a lot harder, however they can't because the minute they do, the bleedin do-gooders are on their backs. A few battons to the crust would have put them off. Rubber bullets wouldn't have gone a miss either. What's the point of having a police force if they can't apply any force? No wonder these riots took place and esculated like they did when people think they are untouchable by the law. The Police had to the legal standing to use batons and baton rounds before this even started! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey19 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 How about some of you people actually support the police who bravely got in there and dealt with the morons smashing up our streets. How about a bit of praise for the court systems who have actioned overtime to process the hundreds of cases and took a tough stance of bail, sentences and remanding people out of the magistrates system and directly into crown court as much as they could within the law. How about a bit of praise for the PM who actually took action in dragging parleament back from their summer jollies and got them back at work again. The PM who also swiftly allowed the police to toughen up their actions and start using more serious tatics and weapons. ......... NO of course its just bitch, whinge, whine and moan about the lack of action and the soft touch. A load of armchair pundits sat on their arses spouting their bile. Are you the same people who not so long ago were all bitching about the "heavy handed" and "wasted resources" during the recent demonstrations??? I cant beleive this topic is even being discussed. The rioters and their supposed parents are the ONLY people where criticism should be aimed. People are legitimately criticising the polices lack of action in the early stages of the rioting and looting. I saw situations where well protected police officers who were not greatly outnumbered stood by and watched criminal acts being committed. I presume the operational decision was not to intervene if there was no risk to life. This inaction leads to a lack of confidence in the police to protect communities and also shows others that criminals are being allowed to cause mayhem as a result some people will probably have joined in. People were burnt out of their homes and businesss and lost all their possessions. I think the senior commanders in the Met were more worried about press sensational reporting of any perceived wrongdoing by officers than the results of their inaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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