Is David Starkey Right ?

[Streamline]

That is only the case if your idea of 'closing down a debate' is having a view different from your own. This seems to be the new definition put on censorship by a lot of right wingers. The more accepted definition of closing down debate is things like arresting journalists and making political opponents disapear.

 

We have a right wing government and a mostly right wing media. Starkey's comments continue to be freely re-broadcast and printed. There is no chance of him being arrested or 'disapeared' for what he said. In view of such facts, the constant references to 'closing down debate' would seem to be merely the whinging of people who can't accept the fact that a lot of people find their views - at best - distasteful.

 

If you actually saw the debate in question, you would have noticed that it was in fact Starkey who wasn't keen on allowing others their opinions. He refused to allow anyone else to get a word in edgeways by boorishly shouting them down and ranting throughout almost the entire 'discussion'.

 

I noticed it was him against the rest, effectively 3 against 1, how does that equate to right wing bias?

[retep]

He was being really kack handed, and he did seem to misunderstand what 'black culture' was, as he seemed to percieve it as being unable to speak properly, listen to violent lyrics in music and generally feel that gangs etc are the most appropriate way to live... I think that most people would realise that gangs etc are a part of all cultures, and some people are violent regardless of race or background... It did at times seem that he was straying close to having a point though - as these are the scrubbers who are dragging society down, and who always have for centuries... These days they're not just white, but have black faces too... It's easier to pretend scum like this didn't exist before immigration, but it did - who do you think were originally put on a boat for australia? Who filled the poor houses? The social ancestors of those who were looting last week - oh and pyro Clegg the young arsonist...

 

Anyone who the authorities wanted, to make up a population, stealing to the value of a penny rendered you likely for seven years transportation,

and the poorhouse was for those who would have died of starvation otherwise, some preferred to starve.

[donkey]

I noticed it was him against the rest, effectively 3 against 1, how does that equate to right wing bias?

 

There were two other people and a presenter. I very much doubt his ecentric rantics represent the views of one third of the public - not that he allowed the other people to speak for more than a few seconds anyway.

[retep]

Dee Gully presents The Riot Report and in part 1 we have South London's Jaja Soze and the PDC founder talks about His views on the London Riots,The Death of Mark Duggan

[azazel666]

Dee Gully presents The Riot Report and in part 1 we have South London's Jaja Soze and the PDC founder talks about His views on the London Riots,The Death of Mark Duggan

 

What a repulsive man.

[leviathan13]

With regards to white rap/hip hop artists, the Beastie Boys have been around a while and are widely known. Plus they do a lot these days for many charities world wide.

 

The way I see it, modern day rap is much like the feminist movement - initially it started as a cause to bring awareness of injustice to a group of people, but as time moved on, many took it further and diluted the meaning.

 

The early rap/hip hop was extremely political and highlighted the issues going on in America. The likes of Public Enemy, NWA, Grandmaster Flash etc. were predominantly shouting about how black people were being treated. Now, it's been taken to such an extreme that, in my opinion, the modern day rubbish has destroyed much of that early message.

 

This is just my view.

[shims]

Here's one you made...

If you had a reasonable working knowledge of the music you'd actually know that my statement is correct.

 

Why do you think I should start listing names of rappers?

Oh, just a couple would do! Purely to illustrate that you have some knowledge of the music as you have suggested. You haven't, of course. Your twin hobbies seem to be challenging statements made by other people who are factually correct in what they say and bluffing about things you no nothing about. The type of behaviour expected of an internet troll.

 

Yet you still think your personal listening habits are superior to those who actually work in the industry! Your hilarious!

You claimed you are a teacher or in teacher training I believe. Your grammar is, err .. interesting. However, this statement is foolish even by your standards: you seem to be implying that because someone is in the music industry, by default, their taste in music is better than those who aren't! Besides there's always a chance that I work in the music industry but that might over complicate your simplistic view of things!

 

Mature a little, find a better way to amuse yourself. Perhaps one that doesn't show you up so badly.

 

No that was Idris Elba who mentioned him, then other rappers dismissed him as not a proper rapper. That section went on about how rap isn't a white thing.

Yes, actually. You mentioned him as another example of a white rapper because, after having watched the show, he's one you can name. I asked you to name some more. You won't and can't.

[just_words]

If you had a reasonable working knowledge of the music you'd actually know that my statement is correct.

 

 

Oh, just a couple would do! Purely to illustrate that you have some knowledge of the music as you have suggested. You haven't, of course. Your twin hobbies seem to be challenging statements made by other people who are factually correct in what they say and bluffing about things you no nothing about. The type of behaviour expected of an internet troll.

 

 

You claimed you are a teacher or in teacher training I believe. Your grammar is, err .. interesting. However, this statement is foolish even by your standards: you seem to be implying that because someone is in the music industry, by default, their taste in music is better than those who aren't! Besides there's always a chance that I work in the music industry but that might over complicate your simplistic view of things!

 

Mature a little, find a better way to amuse yourself. Perhaps one that doesn't show you up so badly.

 

 

Yes, actually. You mentioned him as another example of a white rapper because, after having watched the show, he's one you can name. I asked you to name some more. You won't and can't.

 

Read all which has come before, the mention of the Streets was talking about what was said and discussed on the programme!

 

I asked you to qualify yourself as to why your view on music was superior to that of industry professionals hired by channel 4, your response:

 

This is based on knowlegde of the music, not watching some mediocre TV programme.

 

Why are you inferring that I have no knowledge of rap music? Is it because i'm not black? Don't be an idiot all your life!

 

 

As to your first statement, no in my opinion (which at this point is equal to yours) I see it quite opposite and that there is a lot of violence and crime in rap songs. Then as support I referenced the flagship programme to Channel 4's Street Summer season, which you just claim that you are more of an expert than anyone on the programme, but without any backup to your personal claim.

 

 

not watching some mediocre TV programme.

 

 

Oh, BTW I had a regular slot on SCR for about 3 years at the end of the eighties and beginning of the nineties, also played most of the clubs and blues of that time.

[shims]

Newsnight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU5TcTSa9kk

 

Starkey:

‘A substantial section of the chavs have become black. The whites have become black. Black and white, boy and girl, operate in this language together, which is wholly false, which is a Jamaican patois that’s been intruded in England, and this is why so many of us have this sense of literally a foreign country.’

 

 

Jamaican patois is not the only dialect or language spoken in England other than English. Most of modern black youth-speak is not patois at all and many of the terms used by young black youth are originated from here, not in the Caribbean.

 

How can anyone have a sense of a "foreign country" because of youths speaking slang words, when compared with foreign nationals/migrant workers and immigrants speaking in their native tongue on British soil! The man's statement is absurd. It's quite possible, as a native English speaker, to understand someone using street slang (since the slang is English based). How on earth could this compare with exposure to say, Urdu, Cantonese, Polish, Shona or the rest, which are entirely foreign and require prior learning?! Besides, some might easier follow a speaker of authentic Jamaican patois than a regional English speaker with a thick accent from Inverness or Tyneside.

 

What Starkey is doing here is to singularly attribute a 'foreigness' to street language whilst ignoring that we live in a multicutural country where you can hear a plethora of foreign languages spoken daily without having any grasp of them at all. Somewhat of an oversight on his part.

 

He then proceeds to read out a message from a girl who was looting, which bears no relation to patois whatsoever and is fairly easy to follow which makes his prior claim invalid.

 

When Owen Jones is speaking about black culture Starkey jumps in with: "like rap, you glorify rap?", believing he's on a winner. This serves to show his ignorance of the music genre as a whole, rather akin to some of the posters on this thread. Often people only really notice the negative and then apply their reaction to this negativity far more broadly than is reasonable. This is exactly what Starkey does on Newsnight and this is what shows his ignorance and where the claims of racism originate.

 

After Starkey's interjection, Dreda Say Mitchell says that she uses rap in schools to teach children literary devices. Illustrating that rap is not simply how Starkey views it.

 

People speak of Enoch Powell as if he was some sort of prophet rather than a conservative racist. When you consider the prejudice directed towards immigrants in England in the 1960's it's hardly rocket-science to predict that there would be seroius trouble in the years ahead. My friend's mother could see it coming and moved with her children back to the Caribbean in the early 1970's, returning later when they ahd grown and could no longer be subject to dog's abuse by certain school teachers.

 

Would I brand Starkey a racist because of what he said? No. what he manages to do is make generalisations where, if he had a greater depth of knowledge, he would be unable to.

 

Dreda Say Mitchell makes a good point about our values in modern British society re: our culture of materialism and of how we let the bankers off with their misdeeds. I believe general apathy towards politics and in particular, polling is aggravated by such actions. Justice being applied unequally.

 

I certainly wouldn't like to see David Starkey dropped from television purely for saying many others may also feel. That doesn't mean I'd agree with the simplistic and innacurate analysis he made of the situation but I do believe he could learn from people such as Dreda Say Mitchell and Owen Jones whose areas of knowledge are quite different from his own.

[shims]

Why are you inferring that I have no knowledge of rap music? Is it because i'm not black?

It's apparent from you writing here. I've no idea of your ethnic background and can't imagine how it's relevant.

 

 

I see it quite opposite and that there is a lot of violence and crime in rap songs.

Indeed there is BUT the majority of hip hop does not glorify criminality. You'd be aware of this if you followed the music closely, which of course is entirely optional! Not everyone likes hip hop! The problem is that, as I stated a lot of what is penetrating the charts and radio playlists is quite negative and gives a poor impression of the music to someone who does not expose themselves to it more deeply. It's something I feel quite strongly about as I'm sick of hearing the "hip hop ain't what it used to be" cliché.

 

Oh, BTW I had a regular slot on SCR for about 3 years at the end of the eighties and beginning of the nineties, also played most of the clubs and blues of that time.

A long time ago but I remember it well and the music of that time. Quality hip hop received plenty of attention in those days and emerging gangsta rap was fairly underground. In this century we see coke-snorting gangbangers like 50 Cent and The Game in the charts and anyone whose rap is political, social commentary or left-field is now underground and completely unknown by daytime radio and MTV audiences. Of course, there has been a general increase in the sexualisation of pop music over the last fifteen years, not just in the booty-shaking hip hop videos.