Solar Panel Megathread

[apelike]

Because natural gas provides power as and when it's needed at low cost and solar panels don't?

Because giving middle class people essentially free electricity for owning a house with a good size roof, at the expense of the poor is regressive and immoral?

Because subsidising solar panels that don't actually do anything about CO2 production is stupid?

 

This is in real-time of what Germany produces with PV generation of electricity.

 

http://www.sma.de/en/company/pv-electricity-produced-in-germany.html

Edited September 2, 2015 by apelike

[unbeliever]

This is what Germany produces with PV generation of electricity.

 

http://www.sma.de/en/company/pv-electricity-produced-in-germany.html

 

 

That's nice.

 

So when it's sunny and warm and nobody needs heat or light, they get an extra 10-20GW of power. Now all they need is to find something to use it for.

 

Wind it back to 6:15 am, 0 GW. Good job it's never cold at night in northern Europe, plus we all know how much Germans hate TV and like candles. Won't go back any further. No data for between 8:45 pm and 6:15 am. Can't think why.

Change the date to February, peaks at about 4 GW. Not like it's cold in Germany in the winter I suppose. Then of course there's that well known German tradition of not eating cooked food between september and march.

 

Solar panels produce power at exactly the wrong times.

You're basically supporting a many billions of pounds being spent on solar powered torches.

If you think it's a good idea, I have a chocolate fireguard and some submarine screen doors you may be interested in.

Edited September 2, 2015 by unbeliever

[apelike]

That's nice.

 

So when it's sunny and warm and nobody needs heat or light, they get an extra 10-20GW of power. Now all they need is to find something to use it for.

 

Contrary to your understanding a great deal of electricity is actually used during the day. They don't need to find other uses as that capacity is already being used by industry, which is its biggest consumer and also business and households during the day. With the advent of low energy lighting, LED and LCD technology together with storage heaters its night time use is not as demanding.

 

Electricity use also has peak times; mornings, lunch time and early evening when for the most part it is still light and just like the UK it is managed very well.

 

For energy security in the future we (the UK) cannot rely solely on gas alone so a mix of, wind, tidal and solar power make a good deal of economic sense. Germany have already realised that.

 

Here is a recent PDF with up to date graphs and explanations about how PV is contributing to the renewable situation in Germany.

 

BTW can you deliver those items especially the chocolate fire-guard.

[unbeliever]

Contrary to your understanding a great deal of electricity is actually used during the day. They don't need to find other uses as that capacity is already being used by industry, which is its biggest consumer and also business and households during the day. With the advent of low energy lighting, LED and LCD technology together with storage heaters its night time use is not as demanding.

 

Electricity use also has peak times; mornings, lunch time and early evening when for the most part it is still light and just like the UK it is managed very well.

 

For energy security in the future we (the UK) cannot rely solely on gas alone so a mix of, wind, tidal and solar power make a good deal of economic sense. Germany have already realised that.

 

Here is a recent PDF with up to date graphs and explanations about how PV is contributing to the renewable situation in Germany.

 

BTW can you deliver those items especially the chocolate fire-guard.

 

You're quite wrong.

Electricity supply is always at least 50% "base load". This is required 24/7 and has to be continuous. The rest is a combination of "peaking" supply and supply which can be adjusted quickly according to demand.

 

Renewables which are capable of providing base load are:

hydroelectric, geothermal, biogas, biomass, solar thermal with storage and ocean thermal energy conversion.

 

Solar is inversely correlated with demand over a year. That's a very serious problem. I agree that this is less of a problem over a day, but it's still a problem.

Wind is essentially random.

 

The solution to CO2 free electricity production is quite clearly nuclear. It's 2-3 times more expensive than gas, and it doesn't do peaking or on demand as well, but at least it works.

[El Cid]

Contrary to your understanding a great deal of electricity is actually used during the day.

 

Eggborough power station is to close, Longannet power station to close and Ferrybridge plant in West Yorkshire; all closing in 2016.

So we might just need some power from every source possible, maybe now is not a good time to be cutting subsidies.

[apelike]

You're quite wrong.

Electricity supply is always at least 50% "base load". This is required 24/7 and has to be continuous.

 

Can you provide any further details of that?

 

 

The rest is a combination of "peaking" supply and supply which can be adjusted quickly according to demand.

 

Yes that is probably true for the moment in the UK but it was not always that way. It was balanced, with a lot of power plants not having to operate at high load. Now because of the lack of alternatives, diminishing coal and oil fired stations and the decommissioning of Nuclear plants its different.

 

14 power plants in the UK have been closed, 3 mothballed and 2 partially closed with reduced capacity since 2010, which puts pressure on other power generators. The generation capacity at the moment is not much different to the present demand.

 

Germany has already shown that this can change and that their country does not have to rely on Nuclear power. It has a greater manufacturing base and a greater population as well and yet what they are doing is working.

 

 

Oops, just realised that in my haste I forgot to post that link.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CFAQFjAIahUKEwihs7Laj9nHAhVnEdsKHa_rDtw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ise.fraunhofer.de%2Fen%2Fpublications%2Fveroeffentlichungen-pdf-dateien-en%2Fstudien-und-konzeptpapiere%2Frecent-facts-about-photovoltaics-in-germany.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFY9C31deRRUCJ0EobYrK5fqN6J_A&cad=rja

[El Cid]

Peak summer electricity demand on the grid is expected to reach just 37.4 gigawatts in 2014, down from 38.4 gigawatts in 2013.

This is the lowest ever predicted by National Grid, and it says the record low is "in large part" due to solar. The effect will increase next year as embedded solar capacity grows to an expected 5.5 gigawatts in February 2016.

The figures show renewables generated 19.2% of UK supplies in 2014.

Electricity demand is falling despite economic growth.

 

http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2015/04/five-ways-the-uks-electricity-grid-is-changing/

[apelike]

Thanks for that link El Cid.

 

I think some reduction is also attributable to low energy devices now available.

 

Unfortunately there seems to be a bit of a myth going round about renewable energy not being able to cope with this "base load." If mixed with conventional generation it can easily cope. Nuclear energy is not the answer but only a short term fix with long term problems.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/12/1230558/-Sunday-Train-The-Myth-of-Baseload-Power

Edited September 2, 2015 by apelike

[unbeliever]

Thanks for that link El Cid.

 

I think some reduction is also attributable to low energy devices now available.

 

Unfortunately there seems to be a bit of a myth going round about renewable energy not being able to cope with this "base load." If mixed with conventional generation it can easily cope. Nuclear energy is not the answer but only a short term fix with long term problems.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/12/1230558/-Sunday-Train-The-Myth-of-Baseload-Power

 

Again, this is not true.

Base load has to be continuous. Wind and solar are intermittent. It's that simple.

There is enough nuclear fuel available to outlast the earth. It's not short term.

besides, we're looking at what to use for the next century. There will be lots of options after that. Fusion for a start.

 

---------- Post added 03-09-2015 at 06:22 ----------

 

Peak summer electricity demand on the grid is expected to reach just 37.4 gigawatts in 2014, down from 38.4 gigawatts in 2013.

This is the lowest ever predicted by National Grid, and it says the record low is "in large part" due to solar. The effect will increase next year as embedded solar capacity grows to an expected 5.5 gigawatts in February 2016.

The figures show renewables generated 19.2% of UK supplies in 2014.

Electricity demand is falling despite economic growth.

 

http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2015/04/five-ways-the-uks-electricity-grid-is-changing/

 

What about winter?

[Cyclone]

Thought so..

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/mar/23/uk-government-solar-feed-in-tariff

 

Yes, that stopped it cutting it for people who had ALREADY installed.

The cuts for new installations went right ahead, and this new cuts that are proposed are for new installations.

 

If you already got your snout in the trough, you're safe.

 

---------- Post added 03-09-2015 at 08:29 ----------

 

Contrary to your understanding a great deal of electricity is actually used during the day.

Not by households though, primarily by business.

The greatest single peak in the day is when people get home from work, turn on lights and the kettle and the TV. (Or so I remember).

 

Electricity use also has peak times; mornings, lunch time and early evening when for the most part it is still light and just like the UK it is managed very well.

Except in the UK the early evening is often not light, particularly in the winter when the demand will be highest.

 

---------- Post added 03-09-2015 at 08:32 ----------

 

Thanks for that link El Cid.

 

I think some reduction is also attributable to low energy devices now available.

 

Unfortunately there seems to be a bit of a myth going round about renewable energy not being able to cope with this "base load." If mixed with conventional generation it can easily cope. Nuclear energy is not the answer but only a short term fix with long term problems.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/12/1230558/-Sunday-Train-The-Myth-of-Baseload-Power

 

How can solar 'cope' with base load? Base load isn't optional and coal power stations don't have an off switch (it takes a long time to ramp up or down).

The only way it actually works is having enough gas power generation to cover for the solar, which makes it pointless, as a rapid spin up gas generator is more polluting than coal.