Is the Government GUILTY of sub judice re the riots?

[Joe9T]

it beggars the question whether the riots were needed for the Government to be able to bring through tough police tactics, as worse things are on the horizon.

[ECCOnoob]

When the scales of justice are so clearly weighted, when wealthy people can loot and plunder with absolute impunity there is bound to be civil unrest. It seems to me that our government are hell bent on creating the ideal environment for riots as they continue to drive the wedge into the social and economic divides.

 

Oh god not another socialist.

 

Loot and plunder what? What are you talking about?

The focus of this thread should be ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

 

MPs claiming ludicrous expenses. The rules were there and they took advantage of them. Its the rules that need changing and they should be clamped down on BUT none of it was illegal. The few ones who did genuine fraud were caught and sent to jail just like any other criminal would be. The rest of them have been publicly stipped, resigned if necessary, lost their seat if necessary and now the rules are changing.

 

That bankers to "stole" our hard earned cash and caused financial meltdown (not). They were doing a job. The fact that that job was to to make money out of other people's debt might leave a sour taste BUT its not illegal. Thousands of companies (including lots of your little local friendly loansharks) are doing exactly the same thing on a smaller scale. Why arn't you all protesting against Provident or Wonga.com or Quick Quid?? The stock markets crashed but the country did not collapse and die. Morons have been making it like the appocalypse. We are not like Greece or Ireland. We are not even close for god sake. Yes the regulations and safeguards should have been stronger but PEOPLE are just as much to blame for spending more than they earn.

 

What about those tax avoiders. The ones who use accountants and lawyers to make sure they dont pay a penny more than they have to...... Oh yeah, just like anyone else who completes a tax return. Quite simply noone should or will pay more than they legally have to. We all do the same when in that position. Is it just the fact that these people earn milllions vs a few thousand that people object to? Have you ever stopped to think that that 5% or 1% of tax they pay might be as much as a 1000 self employed plumbers put together. Still n.othing illegal. Still nothing criminal.

 

Now lets compare the the rioters. Those morons who are committing assault, burgulary, arson, break and entering, tresspassing, violent conduct, breach of peace.... etc... etc..... with little or no 'cause'. Having the nerve to claim they are doing it to make a statement or a protest against the government and authorities whilst robbing from JD Sports and Mr Singhs Corner Shop and Lidl.

ALL OF THAT IS ILLEGAL therefore it will punished as such.

 

There is absolutely no comparison to any of the supposed 'immoral activities' of the people in power. Real corruption goes far far deeper than anything we will ever see in the UK and to give these rioting pond life any kind of justification and comparators is absolutely stupid.

 

I applaud the government for their quick and hard action on the rioters. I am sick to death of all these liberal types who have recently been on tv spouting about too harsh sentences and whinging about the cost of imprisonment of the rioters. Sod that. They deserve everything they get. They destroyed people's lives, homes and businesses. they injuried and nearly killed several of them. Until you can show me a company executive, tax payer or MP who did that with justification you will never be able to convince me that they are on a level with these rioters.

[tinfoilhat]

Well said that man.

[poppins]

It seems common sense is appearing...

 

she should instead perform 75 hours of unpaid work for the community.l[/url]

 

 

Is there such a thing as getting paid for community service as a punishment ?

[Frank Sidney]

Oh god not another socialist.

 

Loot and plunder what? What are you talking about?

The focus of this thread should be ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

 

MPs claiming ludicrous expenses. The rules were there and they took advantage of them. Its the rules that need changing and they should be clamped down on BUT none of it was illegal. The few ones who did genuine fraud were caught and sent to jail just like any other criminal would be. The rest of them have been publicly stipped, resigned if necessary, lost their seat if necessary and now the rules are changing.

 

That bankers to "stole" our hard earned cash and caused financial meltdown (not). They were doing a job. The fact that that job was to to make money out of other people's debt might leave a sour taste BUT its not illegal. Thousands of companies (including lots of your little local friendly loansharks) are doing exactly the same thing on a smaller scale. Why arn't you all protesting against Provident or Wonga.com or Quick Quid?? The stock markets crashed but the country did not collapse and die. Morons have been making it like the appocalypse. We are not like Greece or Ireland. We are not even close for god sake. Yes the regulations and safeguards should have been stronger but PEOPLE are just as much to blame for spending more than they earn.

 

What about those tax avoiders. The ones who use accountants and lawyers to make sure they dont pay a penny more than they have to...... Oh yeah, just like anyone else who completes a tax return. Quite simply noone should or will pay more than they legally have to. We all do the same when in that position. Is it just the fact that these people earn milllions vs a few thousand that people object to? Have you ever stopped to think that that 5% or 1% of tax they pay might be as much as a 1000 self employed plumbers put together. Still n.othing illegal. Still nothing criminal.

 

Now lets compare the the rioters. Those morons who are committing assault, burgulary, arson, break and entering, tresspassing, violent conduct, breach of peace.... etc... etc..... with little or no 'cause'. Having the nerve to claim they are doing it to make a statement or a protest against the government and authorities whilst robbing from JD Sports and Mr Singhs Corner Shop and Lidl.

ALL OF THAT IS ILLEGAL therefore it will punished as such.

 

There is absolutely no comparison to any of the supposed 'immoral activities' of the people in power. Real corruption goes far far deeper than anything we will ever see in the UK and to give these rioting pond life any kind of justification and comparators is absolutely stupid.

 

I applaud the government for their quick and hard action on the rioters. I am sick to death of all these liberal types who have recently been on tv spouting about too harsh sentences and whinging about the cost of imprisonment of the rioters. Sod that. They deserve everything they get. They destroyed people's lives, homes and businesses. they injuried and nearly killed several of them. Until you can show me a company executive, tax payer or MP who did that with justification you will never be able to convince me that they are on a level with these rioters.

 

So are you in support of the rioters? I find that confusing

[HeadingNorth]

Is there such a thing as getting paid for community service as a punishment ?

 

Not that I've ever heard of. It's a moot point whether you refer to "community service" or "unpaid community work" - they are the same thing.

[NorthernStar]

Oh god not another socialist.

 

Oh god not another daily mail reader.

 

Loot and plunder what? What are you talking about?

The focus of this thread should be ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

 

MPs claiming ludicrous expenses. The rules were there and they took advantage of them. Its the rules that need changing and they should be clamped down on BUT none of it was illegal. The few ones who did genuine fraud were caught and sent to jail just like any other criminal would be. The rest of them have been publicly stipped, resigned if necessary, lost their seat if necessary and now the rules are changing.

 

The MPs are in a position of trust, they abused the trust we had in them. We also trusted them to keep the house in order and empowered them the make and maintain those said rules, for the most part our crooked MP's got off either lightly or let off the hook completely.

 

That bankers to "stole" our hard earned cash and caused financial meltdown (not). They were doing a job. The fact that that job was to to make money out of other people's debt might leave a sour taste BUT its not illegal.

 

I would dispute this because the bankers knowingly hid the debt by packaging it up to sell on to other banking institutions giving the impression that the debt they were selling on was of a triple A rating, these so called professionals knew exactly what they were doing but chose to be fraudulent in their actions for personal gain.

 

Thousands of companies (including lots of your little local friendly loansharks) are doing exactly the same thing on a smaller scale. Why arn't you all protesting against Provident or Wonga.com or Quick Quid?? The stock markets crashed but the country did not collapse and die.

 

Why indeed, a thoroughly abhorrent and immoral market, why are they not being regulated and forced by law to act reasonably.

 

Morons have been making it like the appocalypse. We are not like Greece or Ireland. We are not even close for god sake. Yes the regulations and safeguards should have been stronger but PEOPLE are just as much to blame for spending more than they earn.

I think things are pretty serious, many will lose their jobs and their homes; and many people did overstretch themselves I agree entirely, so why are the savers being punished to protect the feckless even now?

 

What about those tax avoiders. The ones who use accountants and lawyers to make sure they dont pay a penny more than they have to...... Oh yeah, just like anyone else who completes a tax return. Quite simply noone should or will pay more than they legally have to. We all do the same when in that position. Is it just the fact that these people earn milllions vs a few thousand that people object to? Have you ever stopped to think that that 5% or 1% of tax they pay might be as much as a 1000 self employed plumbers put together. Still n.othing illegal. Still nothing criminal.

 

Should be criminalised, personally I'd like to see the tax laws tightened up and modernised in a fare and reasonable way so as to prevent billionaires from getting away with paying less tax than their cleaners.

 

Now lets compare the the rioters. Those morons who are committing assault, burgulary, arson, break and entering, tresspassing, violent conduct, breach of peace.... etc... etc..... with little or no 'cause'. Having the nerve to claim they are doing it to make a statement or a protest against the government and authorities whilst robbing from JD Sports and Mr Singhs Corner Shop and Lidl.

ALL OF THAT IS ILLEGAL therefore it will punished as such.

 

NO one is defending the rioters but justice must be seen to be fare, and to ignore the background social and economic issues is pretty naive to say the least.

 

 

There is absolutely no comparison to any of the supposed 'immoral activities' of the people in power. Real corruption goes far far deeper than anything we will ever see in the UK and to give these rioting pond life any kind of justification and comparators is absolutely stupid.

 

..... and again to ignore the background social and economic issues is pretty naive to say the least.

 

I applaud the government for their quick and hard action on the rioters. I am sick to death of all these liberal types who have recently been on tv spouting about too harsh sentences and whinging about the cost of imprisonment of the rioters. Sod that. They deserve everything they get. They destroyed people's lives, homes and businesses. they injuried and nearly killed several of them. Until you can show me a company executive, tax payer or MP who did that with justification you will never be able to convince me that they are on a level with these rioters.

 

I worry about a government that thinks that knee-jerk reactions are the solution, no one would defend the actions of the rioters but defending the actions of tax dodgers, fraudsters and crooked politicians isn't the answer either.

[Frank Sidney]

Oh god not another daily mail reader.

 

 

 

The MPs are in a position of trust, they abused the trust we had in them. We also trusted them to keep the house in order and empowered them the make and maintain those said rules, for the most part our crooked MP's got off either lightly or let off the hook completely.

 

 

 

I would dispute this because the bankers knowingly hid the debt by packaging it up to sell on to other banking institutions giving the impression that the debt they were selling on was of a triple A rating, these so called professionals knew exactly what they were doing but chose to be fraudulent in their actions for personal gain.

 

 

 

Why indeed, a thoroughly abhorrent and immoral market, why are they not being regulated and forced by law to act reasonably.

 

 

I think things are pretty serious, many will lose their jobs and their homes; and many people did overstretch themselves I agree entirely, so why are the savers being punished to protect the feckless even now?

 

 

 

Should be criminalised, personally I'd like to see the tax laws tightened up and modernised in a fare and reasonable way so as to prevent billionaires from getting away with paying less tax than their cleaners.

 

 

 

NO one is defending the rioters but justice must be seen to be fare, and to ignore the background social and economic issues is pretty naive to say the least.

 

 

 

 

..... and again to ignore the background social and economic issues is pretty naive to say the least.

 

 

 

I worry about a government that thinks that knee-jerk reactions are the solution, no one would defend the actions of the rioters but defending the actions of tax dodgers, fraudsters and crooked politicians isn't the answer either.

 

Well said, I agree totally..

[tinfoilhat]

Nobody is defending the mps, bankers etc but you can't put them inthe same boat as people who burn down peoples homes and businesses. Or, as I saw on the news today, shoot at police. Is that the same as fiddle expenses ? Were they making a statement about social inequalities ? Were they just trying to a take a life ?

[ECCOnoob]

Oh god not another daily mail reader.

 

 

I am not and never have been a daily mail reader. Is this you standard argument for everyone that disagrees with you?.

 

The MPs are in a position of trust, they abused the trust we had in them. We also trusted them to keep the house in order and empowered them the make and maintain those said rules, for the most part our crooked MP's got off either lightly or let off the hook completely.

 

 

Got off what?? They cannot be punished if they did nothing illegal or anything that breaches regulations. How many times do I have to say it they did nothing against either laws or regs. There is no such thing as a Moral Court of Justice. If you dont like the way the MPs abused their position - you dont vote for them. That's how they get punished.

 

The rules needed to be re-written to stop people making claims. Now they have been. What more do people expect the government to do???

 

 

I would dispute this because the bankers knowingly hid the debt by packaging it up to sell on to other banking institutions giving the impression that the debt they were selling on was of a triple A rating, these so called professionals knew exactly what they were doing but chose to be fraudulent in their actions for personal gain.

 

They did not knowingly hide the debt. Everyone knew fully well how much debt was where. That's how they were making money from it buy buying and selling in toxic assets and hedge funds on bankruptcy and bad credit.

 

BUT they are a business. that's how their business made money. Lots of shareholders and investors (including lots of us normal people through our own investments and pensions) made good money out of this..... until the bubble burst.

 

Nothing fraudulent or illegal. These professionals were just doing the job.

 

This was only a tiny part of the many reasons why we are in a global recession. But it still does not excuse the millions of people spending beyond their means and not being prepared for when life takes a wrong turn. Job losses have come but people go and get another one. Jobs are out there for those who look hard enough. We are still surviving. We are all still consuming, spending, going away, breading and shuffling off to meet our maker. Therefore the cycle of people joining work, leaving work, retiring, studying, graduating continues. I admit its going to be tougher times ahead but that's life. We have all had this before and will have it again. The difference is people now seem to always want someone to blame rather than just adjusting and getting on. Its hardly like a recession has never happened before. Perhaps some people needed a bit of a wake up call.

 

Why indeed, a thoroughly abhorrent and immoral market, why are they not being regulated and forced by law to act reasonably.

 

 

They cant force them by law to act reasonably becuase they have not breached anything. Besides, in the real world if the laws were changed and took some of these companies out of business - how would many of the working class folk survive from month to month without a pay day loan....... Too many people are totally dependant on it.

 

I think things are pretty serious, many will lose their jobs and their homes; and many people did overstretch themselves I agree entirely, so why are the savers being punished to protect the feckless even now?

 

People should have insurances in place for these events. If they lose their home they either never bothered to find another job or lived well beyond their means. As I say above. Recessions come and go. People prepare for them.

 

As for being punished? My savings accounts still have money in them - its not suddenly disappeared or is likely to. The banks are ours, they were given a LOAN and are paying it back. We are possibly going to get a nice shareholding from them and will reap the rewards from the recorvery. Would you not want our interests in the banks protecting considering it affects us all and not just the "feckless"

 

By the way, Arn't these "feckless" people not the same working classes who apparently have been so hard done by those nasty bankers and politicians??

 

Should be criminalised, personally I'd like to see the tax laws tightened up and modernised in a fare and reasonable way so as to prevent billionaires from getting away with paying less tax than their cleaners.

 

 

I highly doubt that your Billionaire will pay less tax than their cleaner. That's just stupid. Its simple relatives of scale. They own billions and pay a percentage. They might pay less percentage than someone on £30k but I can guarantee the amounts will be very significant.

 

Can we also remember that not all "high earners" are billionaires. Even people on a salary of £100k are sneared at by many of the socailists as being out of touch fat cats. Despite the fact that according to recent reports around 66% of their monies are lost in tax. A figure that most of the lower classes would never get near having to pay. Any more changes to the tax laws will make them suffer even more. Why should the higher earners be forced to continually supplement the less well off just because they worked to get a higher position. Fair tax rates and changes to tax laws should work both ways. Not just give favouritism one side.

 

NO one is defending the rioters but justice must be seen to be fare, and to ignore the background social and economic issues is pretty naive to say the least.

 

 

I have said before justice in a court of law can only be given for illegal activity. There is no such thing as a moral court of justice and even if there was there is plenty of activity that the lower classes get up that contribute negatively to the background economic and social problems.

 

..... and again to ignore the background social and economic issues is pretty naive to say the least.

 

 

Im not being naive Im just saying that illegal activity should never be compared to something that appears to be immoral. Its never the same thing.

 

I worry about a government that thinks that knee-jerk reactions are the solution, no one would defend the actions of the rioters but defending the actions of tax dodgers, fraudsters and crooked politicians isn't the answer either.

 

 

This is not a knee jerk reaction. It was an unexpected event and they have took action swiftly just like people expected them to. There were already people who are complaining that the police and politicians did not act quick enough. I dont think the term knee-jerk is appropraite at all.

Once again you keep using the term fraudsters/crooked..... Nothing illegal was done. You cannot punish someone when they have not broken any laws.