danot Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 And, Danot, you're still barking up the wrong tree with face coverings - they aren't illegal anyway - so are you suggesting the police should hassle burqa and niqab clad women just because they hassle young hoodies too?I'm not suggesting the police should hassle anyone that's doing nothing wrong. I'm just pointing out that 99.99% of us are no more likely to be plotting to stab someone if we were to carry a knife around in public, or present any bigger risk to the security of UK establishments, or give the police anymore more reason to think we're up to no good by wearing a balaclava or some other face concealing item, than those do who carry knives and conceal their faces for religious purposes. So why is it only the none religious that are all tarred with the same brush? Double standards- that's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I'm not suggesting the police should hassle anyone that's doing nothing wrong. I'm just pointing out that 99.99% of us are no more likely to be plotting to stab someone if we were to carry a knife around in public, or present any bigger risk to the security of UK establishments, or give the police anymore more reason to think we're up to no good by wearing a balaclava or some other face concealing item, than those do who carry knives and conceal their faces for religious purposes. So why is it only the none religious that are all tarred with the same brush? Double standards- that's why. The non-religious aren't all tarred with the same brush. You've already heard that Cyclone carried a knife around in plain view on his camping trip; I carry a folding pocket knife almost every day and have never been challenged by the police. People with motorcycle helmets go about their business with covered faces, as do various people who need face protection as part of their work. Indeed, someone non-religious found by the police carrying a knife can who can provide a good esplanantion as to why they need it 'I'm a fisherman / butcher / carpet fitter / wood carver, officer' will probably be allowed to go on their way. I think the double standard exists, but only in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrod Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 And, Danot, you're still barking up the wrong tree with face coverings - they aren't illegal anyway - so are you suggesting the police should hassle burqa and niqab clad women just because they hassle young hoodies too?Perhaps they should - the French took a step in the right direction. Interesting that you consider the Police to 'hassle' young hooded youths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 There is no issue. You can have as many women live with you as you like, but only 1 is legally your wife.Then why isn't the carrying of ceremonial daggers and the wearing of niqabs not recognized?. If UK policy makers are refusing to recognize the 2nd wife as being a legitimate wife, despite the nikkah being considered legally binding in the their country of origin, or the country in which it was performed, why would the policy makers consider the niqab or a Sikh's ceremonial dagger more deserving of consideration? Wouldn't it have been simpler to just refuse to recognize any of it and consider it all a load of mumbo-jumbo? Posted by Cyclone I don't know what would happen, but I do know that you wouldn't be committing a crime. But according to some, I would be giving the police good reason to think I might be up to no good. Which begs the question- what is it about the religious daggers and face concealing garments that doesn't give police good reason to stop them? Posted by Cyclone How about you put on a motorcycle helmet and go for a walk around in public. I doubt that anything interesting will happen apart from your hot head getting a little hotter. But if I was approached by the police, my head'll be even hotter sat in the back of their police car having ignored all requests to remove it. Posted by Cyclone In my camping rucksack, why? My kitchen knives are in my kitchen, various other knives are in various other places in the house. They're all perfectly legal.. Because they're where you and the law think they should be when not being used, that's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrod Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 . .. . How about you put on a motorcycle helmet and go for a walk around in public. I doubt that anything interesting will happen apart from your hot head getting a little hotter. . . .. . .In many petrol stations, the attendants will not turn on the pump until you have taken the helmet off to reveal your face. Try walking into a bank or post office wearing a helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Not if it's obvious from the style of dress that your face is covered for religious, cultural or safety reasons. That's self evident isn't it?So you're saying that the police have good reason to think someone who's not a Muslim, who isn't working, or riding a motorbike, is probably up to no good if their face is concealed? Is there any way of knowing whether a Muslim is up to no good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Using one as a weapon to assault someone or to commit robbery would be an offence, yes.As would waving one in a threatening manner. . Posted by Halibut A Sikh using his Kirpan to defend himself would be subject to exactly the same process under the law as I would if I used a kitchen knife to defend myself. Which is what I said, although, the Sikh's in the picture link weren't defending themselves, they were posing for a photo with daggers in their hands which they were gesturing in a threatening manner. Posted by Halibut I believe many Sikhs do indeed carry a small and essentially harmless Kirpan in the form of a pendant. You're right, some do. But I think it''d be more sensible, and less compromising to the current knife laws if all Sikh's were to carry a small and essentially harmless Kirpan in the form of a pendant. Posted by Halibut What, however, is wrong with the status quo? Why does it bother you that Sikhs can carry their Kirpans? The fact that It's an offensive weapon (4" long none folding blade) bothers me a little. That, and the realization that the Kirpan needn't be in the form of an offensive weapon. Posted by Halibut I carry a pocket knife, why shouldn't a Sikh carry a Kirpan? errr.. because one fits the description on "an offensive weapon and the other doesn't, perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mort Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 back on topic please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Originally posted by Halibut The non-religious aren't all tarred with the same brush. Yes they are, you virtually said so yourself. If the police were to stop me in the street to ask why I always wear a balaclava, would you expect them to accept that I just like wearing balaclava's and bid me good day, or would you expect them to kindly request that I take it off before sending me on my way? And what would you expect them to react if they found me wearing it the following day? Let's say it was the latter, would I be within my rights to refuse to stop wearing it? Would doing so result in the police taking it from me? would it be a beach of my civil rights if they did take it from me? If to the police's frustration, I had a balaclava for each day of the year and simply replaced the previous one with another, would they, could they, issue me with a caution, and if so, on what grounds? Posted by Halibut You've already heard that Cyclone carried a knife around in plain view on his camping trip; I carry a folding pocket knife almost every day and have never been challenged by the police. If the knives you were carrying are of the folding variety with a blade of less than 4", they don't meet the description on an offensive weapon. Posted by Halibut People with motorcycle helmets go about their business with covered faces, as do various people who need face protection as part of their work. Indeed, someone non-religious found by the police carrying a knife can who can provide a good esplanantion as to why they need it 'I'm a fisherman / butcher / carpet fitter / wood carver, officer' will probably be allowed to go on their way. But the religious aren't subjected to such inquiries. Nor are they limited to conditional circumstances. If they were limited to where they can cover their faces and carry their daggers (such as when making their way to their place of holy worship) I wouldn't have a problem with it as they'd be required to explain themselves to over zealous police officers just like everyone else. Posted by Halibut I think the double standard exists, but only in your head. It's clear to see Halibut, you're just so accepting of it that it's doesn't register to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Yes they are, you virtually said so yourself. If the police were to stop me in the street to ask why I always wear a balaclava, would you expect them to accept that I just like wearing balaclava's and bid me good day, or would you expect them to kindly request that I take it off before sending me on my way? And what would you expect them to react if they found me wearing it the following day? I think probably deduce that you were a harmless eccentric or out to make a political point and decide there wasn't anything worth arresting you over - or if you were aggressive and shouty about it they might do you for behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace. Let's say it was the latter, would I be within my rights to refuse to stop wearing it? Since wearing it isn't illegal yes, i think you'd be within your rights to refuse to take it off (provided you weren't in the bank or the passport control at the airport). Would doing so result in the police taking it from me? It might, but they'd be wrong to do so. would it be a beach of my civil rights if they did take it from me? Yes I think it would. If to the police's frustration, I had a balaclava for each day of the year and simply replaced the previous one with another, would they, could they, issue me with a caution, and if so, on what grounds? I don't think so, since you wouldn't be committing an offence. What's your point with all this? If the knives you were carrying are of the folding variety with a blade of less than 4", they don't meet the description on an offensive weapon. It's three inches actually. But the religious aren't subjected to such inquiries. Nor are they limited to conditional circumstances. If they were limited to where they can cover their faces and carry their daggers (such as when making their way to their place of holy worship) I wouldn't have a problem with it as they'd be required to explain themselves to over zealous police officers just like everyone else. People who wear veils or carry Kirpals are subject to restriction; people can be asked to uncover their faces for security purposes such as at the bank or airport. I'm sure people with Kirpals are asked to remove then in some circumstances too. What I still fail to understand is why all this bothers you so much - if people have an innocent reason for carrying a knife be they you or me or Mr Singh down the road, we don't have a problem. If the police suspect we don't have a good reason for carrying one, we may be arrested. If Mr Singh were to use his Kirpal to threaten anyone or to commit a robbery he'd be arrested. No problem. If a woman chooses to wear a burqa, there's no real reason to suspect she's up to no good in the absence of any other evidence. It's not illegal. If you choose to wear your balaclava on a hot day the police may well want to ask you why, but provided you have no malicious intent, no problem. What's wrong with any of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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